this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
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Israeli PM said to have turned down proposal in early talks and continues to take tough line

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[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 74 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I’ll tell you a secret: he doesn’t want to get the hostages back yet. They’re serving as a casus belli right now.

[–] BeautifulMind@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

won't somebody think of the warmongers?

[–] Land_Strider@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Hey, getting having a casus belli that can be passed around to buy you time to bomb a city long enough before someone intervenes, especially if you can't singlehandedly deter many of the other armies to leave you alone, is a rare opportunity for small fish warmongers.

[–] CosmicCleric@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

casus belli

casus belli /kā″səs bĕl′ī, kä″səs bĕl′ē/

noun

  • An act or event that provokes or is used to justify war.

  • A matter or occasion of war; an excuse or a reason for declaring war: as, the right of search claimed by Great Britain constituted a casus belli in 1812.

  • An act seen as justifying or causing a war.

(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition)

[–] cosmicrookie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Found the Crusader Kings player

[–] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 49 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Bibi doesn’t want peace, he wants genocide.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

In Bibi's eyes, every day that Hamas continues to exist is a good day. If Hamas ever ceases to exist, Israelis might go back to questioning his corruption charges.

[–] dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have a Jewish colleague who calls him Bibi. What’s the deal?

[–] Marsupial@quokk.au 12 points 1 year ago

His first name is Benjamin, his family had other Benjamin’s, they nicknamed him Bibi.

[–] shatal@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago

At this point he doesn't have a choice. Hamas offered to release about a dozen hostages for a ceasefire.

The Israelis repeatedly declared that there won't be any ceasefire without the release of all the hostages.

If he accepts anything else he's most likely to loose all control.

[–] ShroOmeric@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

He'll rather kill them all with his own hands rather than stop the war. The moment genocide is over he's next in line to get fucked. So long hostages. This is what you get for electing sociopaths I guess.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, color me surprised... he's seemed so interested in a peaceful resolution.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago

He doesn't give a shit about hostages.

If he did, they wouldn't be blowing up all of Gaza.

If any die from IDF strikes, he'll just say that Hamas killed them and use their deaths to justify more bombings.

[–] ghostdoggtv@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

All he cares about is escalation. The United States needs to ditch Israel before they get us attacked too.

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yep, he's seeing the opportunity to finally kick the Palestinians out.

[–] better_than_nothin@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Kick out? More like gun down.

[–] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Before? Dude, radical islamic extremists have been calling us "the great Satan" for decades lol

They hate us for our support of Israel and thousands of people have already died because of it.

[–] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course he did.

The hostages are much more valuable to Israel in captivity, so they can continually exploit them for genocidal justifications.

[–] Genericusername@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is simply not true.

There were talks about up to 15 hostages, of 239 in demand for 4 days of ceasefire. Hamas needs this ceasefire desperately to regroup and assess the damages. The chaos now serves Israel well and apparently it puts much more pressure on Hamas. The ground invasion proves very effective. Maybe as Hamas becomes more desperate the "price" for the hostages will drop. Alternatively, if Israel will allow them to regroup, the war will take significantly more time because it will be much harder to eradicate them. Maybe the Israelis know where the hostages are held and after a ceasefire the hostages will be transferred to a different hideout, or smuggled via the tunnels to Egypt and from there to who knows where.

[–] homura1650@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Neutral and Israel alligned countries have been calling for a humanatarian pause on purely humanitarian grounds. Even if you don't care about the hostages, that Hamas was willing to offer them means that they had an interest in such a pause as well; making Israel the only obstacle to it happening. That is to say, the severity of the humanitarian disaster in Gaza is squarly on Israel's shoulders. The most charitable reading of the situation is that they have determined that the tactical advantage of blocking a humanitarian pause outways the civilian lives they put at risk by doing so.

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[–] cosmicrookie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's not about the hostages any more. They are the excuse Israel needs to eradicate a whole country.

[–] Genericusername@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Israel cares a whole lot about its hostages. Evidence for that are the prices they were willing to pay in the past.

But sure, let's go with your logic. Why can't Israel just go carpet-bombing the crowded part in the south of the Gaza strip that all the refugees fled to? It would be a very effective way to eradicate them all. They are so crowded in such a small area that it's possible to kill a couple hundred thousands in a single day. Wow, Israel has a lot to learn on how to ethnically cleanse a region.

[–] Microw@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Netanyahu has been on confrontation with the families of the hostages for weeks now.

[–] Genericusername@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

This proves nothing. Of course there would be people who wish for any deal regardless of the conditions and it is not surprising that they will confront the government about it.

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago

Did you just completely ignore what Genericusername wrote and decide to reply to him anyway?

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[–] BackOnMyBS@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think Netanyahu has a similar look about his eyes as Putin? It's like they're monsters inside and are communicating how little empathy and concerns for others they have inside, almost as a warning. Anyone else feel the same thing?

[–] tuxtey@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

I think it's the military training plus a little extra sociopath on the side.

[–] mwguy@infosec.pub 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For some of the hostages. Not all of the hostages.

[–] ahornsirup@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Which is a very important distinction that people here seem to overlook. If you give in to a terrorist's and hostage taker's demands you're inviting more terrorism and hostage-taking because it worked.

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[–] snek@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (14 children)

And yet nowhere did anyone claim otherswise 😕 nor does it improve the situation or change how Bibi is viewed now

(judging by how you phrased this comment)

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[–] aidan@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

One source with knowledge of the talks, which slowed after the Israeli ground invasion, said a central point of discussion was a demand by the Israeli side for Hamas to provide a full list specifying the name and details of each person held in Gaza. The Israeli side was unwilling to cease bombardments without receiving this list.

Hamas responded that it was unable to provide the list without a pause in the fighting, as the estimated 240 hostages were held by a number of different groups in places across Gaza. That suggested even Hamas leaders do not know for sure how many people are held captive, their locations or the number who have survived the bombardments.

Another source said Hamas originally demanded prisoner exchanges, fuel and other supplies in return for the hostages, but these demands were dropped in favour of a halt to the airstrikes alone.

“Each time the Israeli counter-demand got harder,” the source said. Members of Hamas have previously said they took hostages in order to exchange them for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

...

Sources briefed on the talks told Reuters that the group discussed allowing small amounts of fuel into Gaza for humanitarian purposes, which Israel has so far refused, as well as the deal to free a small number of hostages in exchange for a ceasefire of one or two days. The outcome of the talks, however, remained unclear.

It sounds like these sources may be members of Hamas' negotiating team, which I don't exactly know that that's a reliable source.

[–] Microw@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

It doesnt sound like complete BS that Hamas probably doesnt know the exact number, names and placement of hostages at the moment. They probably have a good idea but no definite list.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

When Putin was invading Ukraine everyone's was calling for the Russians to just kill Putin. When Hamas invaded everyone was calling for the Palestinians to kill Hamas themselves.

Awfully silent these days though now israel is the party committing war crimes.

[–] sndmn@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Now? Israel has been committing war crimes for 70+ years.

I think some people might just be waking up to that now.

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[–] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Telling Palestinians to kill Hamas leaders is useless because the top Hamas leaders are actually living abroad, unlike Putin who stay cooped in Russia.

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago

For practical purposes, Putin is pretty much as safe as the Hamas leaders.

[–] soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago

Awful use of the word "everyone"

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You don't see the logical pattern here? This is about being against fascists like Putin and Hamas. Nobody is claiming that our side is filled with lawful good angels, only that the other side is mostly assholes whose main goal is to fuck everything up. Therefore it should be obvious who to root for.

[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Globally, we're going to need to develop approaches for de-radicalizing large groups of people. Even if we can start on the direction towards peace in this situation, both the Israeli and some segments of Palestinian people seem radicalized to the point of no return, where no true solutions is even possible. I see the same thing in the US with whatever tf you want to call the Republican party. They're over the cliff. No pulling them back. Yet we need a way to de-radicalize these people otherwise there is no path forward.

[–] Flag@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You dont have to leave Israel and palestine to find more groups. Have you seen what kinds of people bibi is courting to stay in power? Ultra-orthodox far right netters who are publically asking for a cleansed ethno-state.

[–] fne8w2ah@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Scum propping up scum as always.

[–] ginerel@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

That'd surely had been a bad idea. I mean, that would disrupt Hamas&Bibi's spiral of escalation, right?

[–] bemenaker@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

bibi is a warmonger, always has been

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 1 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a deal for a five-day ceasefire with Palestinian militant groups in Gaza in return for the release of some of the hostages held in the territory early in the war, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.

Negotiations resumed after the launch of the Israeli ground offensive on 27 October, but the same sources said Netanyahu had continued to take a tough line on proposals involving ceasefires of different durations in exchange for a varying number of hostages.

An estimated 240 people were taken hostage after fighters from Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other groups based in Gaza, as well as civilians, crossed the reinforced border fence separating the territory from Israeli towns and kibbutzim.

According to three sources familiar with the talks, the original deal on the table involved freeing children, women and elderly and sick people in exchange for a five-day ceasefire, but the Israeli government turned this down and demonstrated its rejection with the launch of the ground offensive.

On Thursday the US national security council spokesperson John Kirby said Israel had agreed to daily four-hour “humanitarian pauses”, with the aim that the small breaks in bombardments could aid the passage of hostages out of Gaza.

In mid-October, the former Mossad operative David Meidan, who negotiated the release of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit from Gaza over a decade ago, told Haaretz: “There’s no doubt that the first issue the state has to deal with is the matter of the captives … The window of opportunity for this is very narrow.


The original article contains 1,382 words, the summary contains 257 words. Saved 81%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] joker125@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

This is his only way of staying in power. Fuck Bibi

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