You should definitely stop doing "more", also.
this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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That was a figure of speech haha.
I am old and experienced enough to work exactly the hours I am paid. I give my 100% on those hours, I am all in, and I always push back when they try to sneak a meet after my EOD, try to get some extra hours from me and so on.
My last job tried to do this. They didn't even have enough desks for everyone. My entire team said "no thanks" and several people quit and they backtracked real fast. Now their stock is worth $2 when it used to be $40 a year ago lol
Just look for other jobs if you are standing your ground. Sometimes it takes a few losing a few people for them to realize they fucked up
Lol, served them well. This kind of story should be published more, to warn other companies from doing the same mistake.
Once it is clearly proven you can work remotely, a commute to the office should be viewed as a site visit with the travel time being on the clock and travel costs reimbursed. If they do that, then yeah sure I'll listen to podcasts for an hour a day, anything else should be looked at as the pay cut it actually is. ((Travel time x hourly wage)+travel costs).
Yeah I thought about this, we (or I) never considered all the time wasted in commute.
In that case I should leave at 9 am, and return around 4:20 since I make 40 mins commute.
Either that or get paid the extra time, which honestly I don't think it's going to happen.
I feel this so much.
I was hired specifically on a WFH contract, so I don't think my company will be pushing for this. I'm okay with going to the office for the occasional big meeting and such, that's fine. It's fun even, meeting my colleagues in person.
However, due to a list of reasons working in an office for a longer period of time is not sustainable for me. It takes a toll both on my physical health and my mental health. I'm perfectly able to do most anything anyone else can do, but I cannot handle the deluge of social interaction that comes with working in an office and commuting.
Thus there are two options. Either I continue working from home, and I'll be a productive member of society. Or I'll go to office, and sooner or later become essentially disabled. I find the former much more enticing and fulfilling than the latter.
This might not be an answer but my worked also requested us come in 2 days a week. So I ride my bike in around 11am and back home about 1pm. WFH the rest of the hours. I’m all about malicious compliance.
I do this too and I actually like this arrangement. I can take a break in the day and bike or walk into work. Hang out for an hour or two and leave. That's really the gain of going back to office; hanging out with your colleagues. I'm more productive at home.
The upper management at my work is pushing for 3 days a week, but as of now it's completely optional. They keep acting like hybrid work is the best of both worlds, but I honestly feel like hybrid work is the worst of both worlds. Moving all of my equipment is so disruptive to my workflow. And now I get all of the drawbacks of needing to commute with the added drawback of needed to move all of my equipment every day that I go in. My laptop will die if it isn't plugged in for 2 hours, even when asleep, so if I just leave it in my backpack between work days that I go into the office, it will die and I will need to re-open all my applications, which is very time consuming with how slow my laptop is.
My manager decided that our team will have one weekly optional in-office day, so for those of us who want to come in, we can on the same day others want to. We all have lunch together on those days, and we usually leave early - around 3:30 PM. It has actually been really nice to see people's faces. It's just understood that we hardly get any actual work done those days, and it's more for """team building"""
You need to stop using sleep mode and start using hibernation.
Sleep uses the battery, hibernation turns everything off, but saves what you had open, etc to the hard drive. Just like sleep but no battery loss, will take a few more seconds to start back up.
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Moving equipment is one of my main issues, only second to commuting.
We don't have fixed desks, we have to sign up in an app and choose an available space.
So I can't have my desk the way I want, which is very specific as I have my keyboard, mouse, second keyboard, and also 2 external monitors, in the office there is only 1.
And yeah, if I have to, I would accept like going once every 2 weeks, on a friday, with the assumption that it is going to be a slow day for me and my client should be notified of this.
What is that called again, hotdesk? Abso fucking lute nightmare. It’s like taking an open office and making it even shittier. It’s a net NEGATIVE on CuLtUrE, since it makes everyone feel like they don’t have their own place in the office to be comfy with coworkers.
Time for a new job. There are plenty of remote jobs out there. You have good experience under your belt, so don't let them scare you into going into the office. Give them the bird and leave. Companies don't care about you, no matter how long you've been with them, and you shouldn't care either. And no, your team isn't your family, they're just people you work with. Don't be attached.
Yes, I am old enough to know that you are selling your expertise and time.
The company obviously profits a lot more that what you receive.
Also I always cringe with this "family" stuff on any company, that is just a way to manipulate the employees into creating a relationship with the company.
"We're family!...... If you count those toxic families that are governed by raging narcissists. You wanted vindictive feuds, useless arbitrary rules, power-tripping, victim blaming, a cult of personality over management, and extreme punitive actions, right? Right?!"
My last place had a strong cult vibe to it. That was bad enough. But the part that really tripped me out were the overly-bubbly 'glee squad' employees who spent half their time fishing over how life changing our employer was, and the other half literally crying over... how life changing our employer was. It was incredibly cringe. I felt embarrassed for them.
I once worked at one of those "family" places.
One day the boss told me he didn't think I was particularly dedicated to that place.
I said "No shit. That's why you have to pay me to show up every day."
That put an end to that line of reasoning.
I don't think there are plenty of remote jobs anymore. They're highly sought after.
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Its so awesome that people like you stand their ground. It makes a difference for all of us.
Yeah! We love to see this positive solidarity!
Good on you for quitting.
I would HIGHLY advise though, ensuring you have another job lined up before quitting. Lined up as in, you have the paperwork signed. It's common these days to go months without any work. I've been at it for a few years myself, and I'm a tech lead.
I'm on the otherside of the coin. I was remote like many during covid then recently took a job where I have a 40min commute 2 days a week. I wasn't happy about that to start and thought I wanted full time remote. I'm 4 months in now and I love it. To me it feels like the best of both worlds. My drive isn't a hard 40 min and I get through podcasts and calls to friends/family. I just bring my laptop and dock at home or office which is easy. It has been great seeing and meeting people. I try to structure my days so I get meetings in person and focus work done on WFH days. Not for everyone but some, like me, might be surprised that they like a blend more than they think.
Remote definitely is not for everyone! I would just like the freedom to come and go as I choose, but I guess that's not economical from an overhead perspective.
You have IT manager experience, my dude. You'll definitely find some remote work either back on the dev side or still in management. My company tried to pull this too but joke's on them because I moved 200 miles away from the office during Covid. The Economist recently published an article which cites a study that says working from home is not as productive as previously thought, because of the aggregate value that unplanned micro-interactions in the office can provide. Not sure I agree...
Yeah, a lot of the studies about remote work being less productive I find faulty. In my work/team we saw huge productivity gains. Now company-wide are asking for return to office and I'm telling my team not to comply and refer complaints to me (manager). We do go in once a week (in-person interactions have a benefit, but there's diminishing returns to how often these in person benefits occur). Often this will be lined up with client meeting, in-person performance reviews, team lunch, etc.
The international remote teams are already complaining. They can't have the usual meetings because my team is commuting to the office on X day of week. Yeah, early morning meeting with India, EU, etc are a staple now (and part of our productivity boost, it's better to meet when it's not super late for them). When commute to office returned I (and others) booked commute as a time block so the international teams didñt try to get us on calls in the car. If the company wants that time block back for meetings the involved members don't come in.
This will eventually come to a head, but I'm standing with my team members and improved metrics over blanket C-level demands. The business case is already written up for the first time they complain.
I think you did it right. You politely explained that remote work is both amicable to your position and a significant benefit to your quality of life. In order to continue selling your labour to them, you require enough flexibility to accommodate this request. If the company specifically needs the position to be in-person then unfortunately it’s time to part ways.
As far as predicting the future— if you’ve been there 15 years you probably have a decent idea of both how valuable you are to the company, and how valuable the key decisionmakers see you. It’s likely not in their best interest to cut an employee with so much institutional knowledge out just for a policy shift. Unless you’re being paid inflated wages for your position compared with the industry, I’d hazard to guess you’re safe.
That is what I'm hoping, that they would be flexible enough, I can still be here amicably some time, but I will start doing more certifications and basically prepare to jump ship later.
Obviously the company will be expecting that I will be doing this, so the relationship at this point is broken, just a matter of time.
Your instincts are very likely correct. By not demonstrating eagerness to comply with any demand, regardless of reason, you are now damaged goods. However, I question your timing. My instincts honed over 25 years in the viper pit of office politics are saying you need to have an extreme sense of urgency. Don't wait to get certified, you can get certs elsewhere. It's always easier to get a new job while you still have a current job.
The cemeteries of the world are full of indispensable men.
If the company suddenly bends over backwards, gives you a signed assurances of an exemption to general policy and a raise then feel safe. Anything short of this is an invitation to Get Out Now.
Thanks, yeah I think it's a better idea to actively look for a new job now.
As you say certs can come later, but definitely I have to get more certs, I have slept on that one for so long just because I was cozy in my current job.
Good on you for standing your ground. Honestly if they were smart they would give you a raise when the time comes anyway but companies aren't really the smartest when it comes to retention so I hope you find exactly what you're looking for and better.
my new-ish job wants us to come into the office as hybrid (for now) basis; so i moving some where that has trains so i can sleep during the commute
Good for you! Children are only children once, jobs will always be jobs. I definitely am not going back to the office & will freelance if I have to. (software)
If you used to meet people in person at the office, be prepared for a fight. But I personally think a reasonable company should allow you to go full remote. My company and did and my team is all on site.
That being said you're doing the right thing. Look for another job that will let you go full remote. You have the experience, now shop your talent around. Who knows you might also get a nice pay raise as well.
Sounds like my employer. Vague messaging from the CEO a few months back about going into the office, but that it was up to managers to determine what was best for their teams.
Now, the CEO is chiding people for not being in the office at least twice a week. Luckily I’m in a market with a strong presence for my area, but those hotspots are being told to come in at least twice a week.
As a manager, I did have this "up to managers what is best for your teams" conversation with my remote team.
"Can y'all still remotely do the job you've done for several years remotely?"
"Uh. Yeah. Are you going to ask us to come back to the office?"
"Hiring new developers after several of you give notice would be a huge waste of my professional time, so no."
"I guess we told you."
"I'm glad we sorted that out."
You did the right thing my dude. If it makes you feel any better, today I left from work 30 minutes earlier to get my children from day care, a thing I have agreed with my manager to do during this month because I have no one else to do it and he agreed since I have a lot of overtime owed to me. The thing is that today the GM and the SM of the organization were here and I was in the meeting room with them. When the time came I just said, "well If you excuse me, I have to go get the kids", shaked hands with the GM and left. I remember everyone in the room looking at me the way you would imagine. Anyway. We have good unions in my country and it was all legal. I'm giving 100% everyday, not an inch higher. Apparently, I might not be promotion melaterial, but my kids are on top of everything else and worth every second I can spare for them.
I’ve been working from home for 12+ years and I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to work in an office. It would take a very very large number to make me consider it.
Commuting, having to buy “work clothes” etc, adds up. It’s time and money I don’t need to spend.
There was a brief period my boss tried to force us into the office. However anyone I would have to talk to in person was in our CT office (I was asked to go to the NYC office), so it was ultimately pointless and he dropped the issue.
I travel occasionally, for large projects or things that require in-person effort, but it’s not often. I’m currently on my second trip of 2023 and none expected the rest of the year.
(I started as one of two SysAdmins and I’m currently a manager of a SysAdmin team that’s spread out from California, Vegas, Florida and Poland.)
While I do agree face time with people occasionally is nice (we got everyone out on the project earlier this year except for Poland guy) and I find it helps remind you that the voice on the other side of the call is a human but if you have people who can deal with it, it’s not required. Only thing that we gained productivity-wise was a better sense of comradery going forward.
Sounds like it's definitely time for a new job. 15 years is a long time, especially in IT.
Fuck yes! I did the same thing at my last job. Similar setup, geographically dispersed even before the pandemic. Got everything up in the cloud, we were rocking it. Early releases, dev always ahead of schedule. They tried to pull me in the office 2 days a week last year so I fucking quit!
New job I still have to battle every now and then to stay remote but they know I'll bounce the second they try to make me come in. Don't get me wrong I'll come in for a meeting or something if it's important enough, and news flash... it rarely is!
Keep it up man, push back on that office work bullshit. Stay remote, spend the time with family. Fuck office culture, it's irrelevant.
The last company that tried to pull that on me, I quit a few weeks after.
Easier if you are in a in-demand field, however, and of course, find another job before you resign.
Something to consider would be to unionize your workplace, if everyone says this is dumb I'm not doing it and they have the extra legal protections of being in a union then these shit ass Bosses can't do anything about it.
I've often tried to foster the idea with others of starting a programmer's union. What do folks think of that?
Like, just imagine of even 1% of FAANG workers unionized.
Programmers unions are rare but pretty great. They're rare because even individual programmers have massive bargaining power.
They're pretty great beacuse as much fun as it is to go take even more money somewhere else - it's even nicer to just stay at a good job with reasonable benefits.
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Good for you mate
I'm glad you were able to recognize the quality of life imprisonment that work from home brought you and the impact it has on you and your family. With more and more ppl back in the office, WFH has shifted from a safety necessity to another 'perk' that companies can offer, like 401k matching or a 4/10 work schedule.
You are doing the right thing by standing your ground, you are indicating to them that they are in danger of losing talent if they do not continue to offer this competitive advantage to their employees, which should be a no-brainer with the work environment you described.
This should not preclude you from raises imo, and you are smart to be preparing your resume and looking for better opportunities. It is always smart to keep your options open. Good luck!
Things you never hear people say 'I'm looking forward to a long commute and spending all day in an office'.
Why is this even a discussion point?Working from home has been such a game changer. It's better for family life, it's better for the environment, it's efficient. Much of the anxiety around homeworking is the suspicion that people work less. The fact is, if your job sucks you are not doing it wherever it happens to be.
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I understand the anxiety but based on your experience you won't have any trouble finding a fully remote job, probably that pays more.
I've been mostly to fully remote since 2009 and the time I've had with my kids is worth more than anything I could have found in an office. Best of luck in your search!
Hell yea dude. Stand your ground.
WFH is the best option for office work. It makes no sense for many jobs to be in office.
Currently my company does remote hybrid but theres talk of going full remote and i would be over the moon for that. Dont give up man! And good on you for polishing your resume to prepare for the worst.
First of all, I think there’s absolutely no reason to be worried, you‘re a developer at manager level, I think you have nothing to fear about on the job market. There are literally thousands of companies around the globe who want just you in their team no matter where you work from. There are so many jobs you can do 100% remote, so you’ll find just what you want in no time. If a company isn‘t developed enough in the year 2023 to let people work from home while their whole team is spread around the world then f them.
I not only believe that it‘s just an excuse from you, I am convinced that your productivity will go down if you had to go back to the office. Your reasons totally make sense, if they seriously question your arguments I think it’s ok to question yourself if those are people you share the same values with and want to keep on working with.
It‘s also important to show companies that their employees is all they have and they are the ones who should provide them a comfortable and enjoyable environment to work in, otherwise people will leave sooner or later.
Covid should have shown us that (mental) health and time for yourself and your loved ones is top priority in life so your move was the only logical decision. Additionally you proved you‘re a woman or a man of integrity and honestly you have my full respect.
Enjoy the time with your family and in the worst case you will find an employer soon that takes you with a hand kiss and you‘ll be happy then.
Keep us up to date please and enjoy your day! 🌞
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