I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] lepinkainen@lemmy.world 4 points 6 hours ago

Thank fuck my native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns. I just use they for everything, much simpler that way.

[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 11 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

I did not realize that typing exclusively in third-person, and pushing something that is obviously kink-related onto internet strangers was umm... not trolling?

I feel like the troll that does this gives people who fantasize about dragons a bad name, not to mention people who use neopronouns, for various non-trolling reasons, that usually hold some kind of personal meaning. Expression is complicated, but holy goddamn bollucks, third-person shitposting to try to bait people who didn't read a bio into "misgendering" bans is asinine and takes validity from people who could use it. I don't see how any mods have gone along with this "muh third-person antagonistic ranting means victimhood" shit.

Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide, because they are so very super-special.... I hope this place doesn't get tossed into dot world over this, ugh.

Tap for spoiler

I'm going to go consume alcohol and definitely ~~not~~ look at cute/sexy kobalds to cope. Feel free to DM me for info on the nature of creatures outside the scope of waking reality, if you are brave enough.

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide,

The message clearly and categorically states the rules still apply, and that behaviour is what gets actioned. Literally nothing about the post says that someone using neopronouns is otherwise exempt from the rules. If someone is telling someone to kill themselves, report it or DM it to a community mod.

[+] PugJesus@lemmy.world 33 points 1 day ago (7 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 day ago

You don't have to refer to them at all, just block obvious troll accounts. It's not like you're going to shame them into not being a troll.

[–] julianh@lemm.ee 25 points 1 day ago (6 children)

A lot of people say the same things about trans folks in terms of gay rights. Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities. And if you really don't want to use them, it's super easy to just ignore. Idk if I've ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.

[–] shani66@ani.social 2 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Even if we take the person pug is talking about at face value (which, frankly, we shouldn't for them in particular), it's not a gender identity. It's just an identity. We don't have a pronoun for every granular identity under the sun, so it's weird we accept that some people feel the need to have totally unique ones, which goes against the point of pronouns to begin with.

That said, being referred to in the third person would actually be fine imo, but I've been primed for that by being a weeb.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 24 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities.

All concepts are just lines in the sand, even down into STEM. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. The question is whether the new line drawn or erased disrupts other lines, who it benefits, and what it's worth. I happen to have a very low opinion of the idea that gender is entirely arbitrary and without any line in the sand, and that "I identify as an attack helicopter" is not a conservative defamation of the trans and NB community, but a legitimate point of view.

And if you really don’t want to use them, it’s super easy to just ignore.

The commenter was removed and banned for disagreeing with the concept that dragonfucker is a gender. On the meta comm for the instance. Under a post by the main admin.

Idk if I’ve ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.

Dragonfucker has been banned from a number of communities for insisting on just that.

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[–] pack_of_racoons@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Is it safe to asume that this is why the mods have

...been planning on moving 196 to lemmy.world ASAP…

per https://lemmy.world/comment/14170082

[–] yuri@pawb.social 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

i have .world straight up blocked. when the man or bear thing happened EVERY shitty post/poster came from there. and watching pugjesus throw their little shitfit has only cemented that decision.

hilariously i’ve had way better interactions with .ml users, so i guess if the migration does happen i’ll just hang out there. i’d much rather dodge politics than thinly-veiled-to-outright misogyny and casual transphobia lmao

[–] SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 7 hours ago

I promise I'm not stalking you, I think we're just following the same journey and comment progression!

I block/unblock .world as I appreciate the content but the drama:person ratio can get really high. It's mostly thanks to a small number of chronically online people who enjoy throwing fuel on the fire and leading a crusade to defederate and/or brigade whichever instance whenever there's a hot button topic. This seems to gather and focus otherwise aimless "not nice people", á la the man vs bear scenario.

[–] yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Eh, I don't see that as a good idea... also there's already a 196 in lemmy.ml

[–] pack_of_racoons@sh.itjust.works 7 points 21 hours ago

I don't like the idea either. If true, it seems like the mods/community are upset they can't feed trolls, or bully people who aren't the "right" type of queer.

[–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

i don't mind what people call themselves and I'll use it to refer to them if I notice it, but they shouldn't expect their pronoun to be understood if it's something obscure

[–] block_place1232@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 1 day ago

Most of the time I don't ask people their pronouns in public I just tend to use "they/them" until I overhear someone saying their actual pronouns then'll use them.

As for here on Lemmy I just look at their pronouns in the bio or just don't use pronouns at all in my comments.

I respect everyone and if I make a mistake that's okay and I'll refer to them with the correct pronouns.

[–] CreatingMachines@fedia.io 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Wow...looking at these comments, i realise I still have a lot to think about regarding my exact stance on all this...the fact that I have have zero irl exp in this is not helping...

[–] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Because nobody IRL uses neo-pronouns XD

[–] Beegzoidberg@beehaw.org 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Nope, never, except for all the times they do:

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/pronouns-usage-among-lgbtq-youth/

Even if you think it's a weird thing to do you could just choose not to engage, which is advice written in the post you commented on.

[–] shani66@ani.social 1 points 8 hours ago

I mean, 4% is basically never. Unless you want to argue literally cannot be used metaphorically.

[–] seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 day ago

I know some who do, quite a lot actually because the neutral french pronoun is a neopronoun

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (11 children)

When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral "they" allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?

[–] qaz@lemmy.world 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

It's fine by me, but I'm not sure how other moderators (or admins) feel about it

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 34 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Not personally affected, but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason "misgendering" for a comment talking about "drag"'s behavior but using "they".

Not warned. Not comment deleted with "please use pronoun at all times". Just bam.

If the general stance is that reaction can be "up to the admin", that's a bit... minefield-y.

[–] qaz@lemmy.world 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

If the general stance is that reaction can be “up to the admin”, that’s a bit… minefield-y.

I understand that this might seem problematic. We (the mods of 196) are only partially in control of what is removed and who is banned, due it being hosted on blahaj.zone.

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[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

I'd have to see the comment and context to pass judgement, but I can see how a mod might see using "they" to refer to someone who doesn't use "they" in a context about how that person doesn't use "they" as intentional misgendering instead of accidental misgendering.

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 1 points 7 hours ago

Thanks. It was surprising to see it interpreted that way, especially given the context (talking about, not to, an obvious troll), but not a difficult rule to adhere to once it's clear.

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[–] missingno@fedia.io 21 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's a useful feature of language for 'they' to be a valid default you should always be able to fall back on.

I don't even know who any of you are on Lemmy, and I don't care to. I'm rarely ever even paying attention to your names to begin with.

[–] klemptor@startrek.website 22 points 1 day ago

This is a big part of it, to be honest. Dragonfucker eagerly takes offense when people don't use the "drag" pronoun, but most of the time users aren't even looking at handles, and just defaulting to "they" as a general-use pronoun.

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 21 hours ago

It depends on the person. If the pronouns you are using for someone is upsetting them and they make that clear, don't keep using them. If the only pronouns you can use make you uncomfortable, then simply don't interact with the person in question. And if the person in question is trolling or otherwise misbehaving, report them without doing so in a way that ignores their pronouns.

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