Maybe, but it's all academic if we don't have the power to get him nominated. I am reminded of a quip: "We elect people without power and we're surprised that they're powerless to change things". That is the best case scenario if the DNC had somehow nominated Bernie. We need to build power, no matter what our strategy or objective. Highly recommend reading this over doom posting: https://wagingnonviolence.org/2024/11/10-things-to-do-if-trump-wins/
this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2024
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For the previous 8 years, instead of fighting fascism and white nationalism, the Democrats have made their enemy the populists within their own party.
It ended expectedly.
Bernie won fewer votes in Vermont, his home state, than Kamala. One of the rare incumbent Democratic Senators who actually underperformed Harris.
I go back and forth, but I do think Sanders would have had good odds in 2020. We had the same "I can't vote for the status quo" non-arguments going around and a semi-populist candidate arguing for all the things people desperately needed (a socioeconomic safety net, basically) at the height of COVID and civil unrest would have done well. That said, an old white guy who was "warm and safe and was in the same room as Obama a few times" was probably still the right play.
But yeah. In 2024 when all people care about is "not the status quo" and "why eggs expensive"? A guy arguing for MORE government programs does not fair well against "Yo, what if we got rid of all taxes and government funding? Don't ask where the money is going"
But yeah. In 2024 when all people care about is “not the status quo” and “why eggs expensive”? A guy arguing for MORE government programs does not fair well against “Yo, what if we got rid of all taxes and government funding? Don’t ask where the money is going”
This is something I've always tried to get people to understand.
If you're running for office, and your opponent is saying monkeys flying out of your ass are terrorizing the city and causing a huge problem, you'd be right to want to write them off as an unhinged lunatic with no grasp on reality, because anyone can see there are no flying monkeys. Should be pretty cut and dry; ignore him and let him go back to giving sermons to pigeons in the park.
But if 51% of the voting base believes that monkeys flying out of your ass are their top concern, you had better come up with a solution for the flying monkeys. Of course, you could try to appeal to reason and logic and point out that you have pants on and there are no flying monkeys. But if 51% of voters are hooked on the flying monkey problem, you'll be making those appeals during your concession speech, while your opponent will suddenly point out that there are no flying monkeys because he managed to solve the problem on day one.
That's just the reality of running for office. Sometimes, feels win out over objective reality. There are a certain number of voters who fall into this category, and those voters were always out of reach. You cannot use logic to persuade someone to change a position they didn't logic their way into to begin with.
You don't need to concede to their belief and subsequent policies if they aren't grounded in reality, like on immigration. You provide a counter narrative grounded in reality that actually address their needs and concerns, real or perceived.
The Republican narrative on immigration is that immigrants are criminals, bringing crime and drugs into our country to kill our citizens, steal jobs, and exploit welfare, so we need mass deportations. None of that is based on reality.
US citizens are responsible for smuggling in drugs. Immigrants are responsible for less crime per capita than US citizens, use much less welfare than citizens, and contribute far more than they use. The underlying fear is cost of living and safety. So a counter narrative that both points out the realities of mass deportation, aka concentration camps, and provides real solutions to the problems, would absolutely capture those voters and fracture the Republican base.
Those real solutions would include legalization of illegal immigrants to stop companies from exploiting both them and citizens with a two-tier immigration system, increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy to pay for universal social services, systemic solutions to addiction and homelessness, and increasing security to catch smugglers at points of entry. All of which are popular. You address their fears, improve their material needs, and point out how terrible the oppositions 'solutions' are, all without conceding to the Republican framing based on racist lies.
In fact, many progressive policies are popular across the board, including Republicans and independents.
Polls on campaign messaging
How to Win a Swing Voter in Seven Days
“The View” Alternate Universe: Break From Biden in Interviews, Play the Hits in Ads
Polls on policy
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz's Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
That is why trump and vance were so adamant about no fact checking during the debates. All they had to do was say "nuh uh. I saw it on the news" and the moderators couldn't really do much.
Which gets back to the underlying problem of Democrats not actually having a way to communicate with voters. Because even when Fox was saying "Just to be clear for legal reasons, there is no evidence of Haitian immigrants eating dogs" it was followed with "now let's see what else god emperor trump has to say".
Whereas Democrats? We had people who were more interested in attacking Biden than trump (even after he stepped down) and who mostly just said "ha ha, trump says stupid shit."
Because, yeah, logic can't beat vibes. But we also weren't putting out the vibes the way we were in 2020.
Okay now do swing states, the only states that actually end up mattering in presidential elections. Bernie captivated audiences on Fox news during his campaign, appeared in Republican town halls and listened to people. Id bet you dollars to donuts Bernie would outperform her by miles in the swing states.
... So he would do worse in the solid blue states but better in the purple states because... red leaning voters are secretly socialists but blue leaning voters are neoliberal scum?
Read my comment again and dont skip the part about him being well recieved on Fox News and Republican town halls. Its right there why ignore it? Was kamala as well recieved by fox news viewers?
I must be a little slow.
Please explain to me why you think that a candidate who is CONSIDERABLY farther to the left than Kamala is going to outperform her with republican voters. Unless it really is just "he did a good interview on fox". And how that would apparently be better even though he was doing worse with blue voters.
Here is a hint: It is because he has a dick and people are misogynistic as fuck. And you know who else has a dick (as documented in multiple sexual assault and rape allegations)?
I think you're right, you are a little slow. It was more than one interview, it was more than one town hall. People voted for abortion and trump on the same ballot and you cant fathom working party politics playing better among those people?
You're either slower that you admit or purposfully ignorant to further your opinion. You add nothing to a conversation and ignore or belittle anything contrary to your viewpoint. Find someone with more time to invest in teaching slow people, because I may as well be talking with a Republican the way you twist everything I write.
But... I didn't vote for Bernie in either primary. So I guess that makes me a lefitst? I mean, I consider myself to be more of a very progressive (American definition of) liberal but... your logic is infallible.
Also: You need to actually make a point before you huff off in a mess of ad hominem. But I am sure all us slow people don't understand the 9-d chess you are explaining to us or whatever.
I assure you there are Fox news viewers in Vermont, too.
Okay?
Given his lackluster election results, apparently they don't actually find him very captivating.
Youd be wrong. Youd also be wrong to automatically assume they didn't vote for him, unless you have any data that says that. In fact wasn't Democrat turnout down while Republican turnout was up? If hes missing votes it makes way more sense its from dems who stayed home. Unless you have any data that says otherwise, the lower dem turnout in all non swing states explains that a lot better than assuming all fox news viewers simply voted against him. Especially since Trump lost the VT primary. More than half the republicans in that state voted against him during the pimary in favor of Niki Haley, how many of them you think went back to Trump? They clearly don't mind voting for a woman.
I'm saying that unlike nearly every other Democratic Senator, he performed worse than Harris. That's a lackluster result.
If he somehow won Fox News voters, then it was at the expense of losing even more voters elsewhere. That's not a recipe for winning nationwide.
And no, you cannot blame it on Vermont. Harris turned out Vermont voters, why couldn't Sanders turn out as many as she did?
And no, you cannot blame it on Vermont. Harris turned out Vermont voters, why couldn't Sanders turn out as many as she did?
7% of votes this cycle were bullet votes, no downballot races at all, that's up from about half a percent typically. Harris got more votes simply because of the race she was running in.
So people were literally voting for Harris, but refusing to vote for Sanders. Whereas nearly everywhere else, people voted for their Senator but not Harris.
That tells you all you need to know.
I mean maybe if they elected president based on who wins Vermont but the actual race takes all 50 states. You can't simply extrapolate one state across vastly different demographics, like all the swing states that Harris lost worse than any Democrat in recent history. But ill give you the point that if we decided presidenr based on Vermont's vote count alone then Bernie wouldn't be president. Trumps from NY, he must have won that state too since you seem to think its impossible to win an election and not do well in your home state. If you think Bernie doesnt beat Kamalas swing state margins you're on something, right wingers constantly allign with people like Bernie and AOC, AOC just asked all those righrt wingers why too, it was a huge article where she got responses why people who voted for Trump also votes for or support her.
you seem to think its impossible to win an election and not do well in your home state.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying there is exactly one data point that directly compares Bernie to Kamala, and it shows more support for Kamala than Bernie.
And since that is the only place where they can be compared, there is no evidence at all that Bernie would have more support than Kamala in other states.
right wingers constantly allign with people like Bernie
There are right wingers in Vermont too. That's why their governor is a Republican. Yet among all the people who voted for Gov Scott, there weren't enough Bernie supporters to make a difference.
In other words people were willing to vote for Harris and a Republican governor more than they were willing to vote for Sanders. He simply does not have the support you think he does.
Right wingers do not constantly align with AOC. There very few Trump + AOC voters, she was just interested in hearing from them.
I was a Bernie delegate in Minnesota when he won the state in 2020 and I skill knew he had no shot in the vast majority of less liberal states. Where are the numbers coming from for people who would have supposedly voted him in, despite not winning enough primaries?
Bernie is older than Biden.
Trump is older than Kamala
So what's your point🤷
Biden was criticized for being too old. Bernie is 83.
The main crux of the “Biden is too old” criticism though wasn’t the actual age number, it was that he wasn’t mentally all there, which was on display constantly. Bernie always comes off as put together and his speeches are well executed. Biden’s issue was that he sounded less put together than Trump which was impressive in its own way
So let me get this right.
The Democrat party was upset we were putting up a president that was "too old" and showing signs of cognitive decline, especially since he was going up against another old man with even more cognitive decline.
So the Democrat party gets the old man to drop out at the last minute and since there's no time for a Democrat primary, they put up a black woman as the nominee.
But because the black woman wasn't the absolutely perfect candidate, wasn't articulate enough on her policies, and didn't hand the left everything they wanted on a silver platter, they opted to stay home in protest and let the old white man with even more dementia return to power in order to "send a message" to Democrats not to put up old white guys.
And now they're saying that the solution to the old white guy that they didn't want to vote for was to put up an even older white guy who managed to get even less votes than her in his own home state.
Please, make it make sense.
And if you're one of the 10+ million Biden voters who opted to sit home, you still fucking voted for this. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." And you made that choice fully informed, knowing it was a de-facto vote for Trump.
If your solution to the problem of "old white guy" is "even older white guy", then just admit it. You didn't vote for Harris because she's a black woman and are just using the narrative as a convenient excuse so you don't have to admit (to yourself, to friends) that you're a closeted racist. Because nobody with three active fucking brain cells believes that the solution to anything is to sit back and allow Trump to return to power.
"I don't like Harris's economic policies, so I voted for a guy who's economic policy is "They're eating the dogs!"
"I don't like Harris's policy on Gaza, so I voted for a guy who promised to speed up the genocide even faster."
"I don't like Harris flip-flopping on policies, so I voted for the guy who says he has "concepts of a plan".
"I don't like Harris's record as a prosecutor, so I'm going to vote for a guy who wants to have me deported because of my race."
"I don't like Harris being endorsed by a Republican woman (the men are just fine, though), so I'm just going to allow all of them to return to power."
And all I keep seeing from the people defending this line of bullshit is that "They couldn't vote for Harris because.....", or "Harris went too far to the right.....", or "Well, Liz cheney showed up that one time.....". Yet asking the questions of "So how the hell does allowing Trump to return to power help in any way? Better yet, how does allowing Trump to return to power not make the situation actively worse? What is Trump going to do to help me?" is met by silence, insults, and downvotes. Because they know what the answer is. It doesn't. It makes everything worse. But they just don't want to admit (again, either to themselves and/or to others) that they would rather allow an old white wanna-be dictator to return to power before they'd vote for a black woman. Everything else is just excuses.
you make a lot of really persuasive points. if only the campaign had communicated them.
i think the chronically online politics sphere overestimates how much the average voter knows by about 100-fold and that’s why we get comments like this.
when mcdonalds releases a new burger and no one buys it, we blame the product and the marketing. but when the DNC drops a new candidate, there is no room to talk about the candidate or the marketing for some reason—it’s all finger pointing and blaming one another for not “just getting” information that’s all but kept hidden from a population with >20% rates of low literacy.
I think the problem is less "the campaign" communicating and more... there is no way for them to reach the majority of the audience.
There are plenty of memes about people realizing on election day that Biden wasn't running. And... that isn't that far out. Because people:
- Refuse to watch commercials... ever
- Get pissy when "politics" is brought up in their entertainment
- Get even pissier when "politics" is brought up in a message board
So republicans can more or less advertise directly to the fox news crowd and they have influencers like xqc and all of kick to get that message out.
On the left side? We have fucking Hasan. A nepo baby who has somehow convinced people to equate "being a socialist and fighting for progress" with "donating subs to a super rich guy in a mansion" and whose own fans point out that he "Attacked both sides but attacked trump a lot worse"
We need people who can reach out to the idiots. And we need people who can do so and actually say "Look. I fucking hate Biden and am wary of Kamala. They are going to be horrible for Palestine. But you know who is going to be worse? Fucking trump. So yeah, I would vote for Genocide Joe in a heartbeat if the alternative is trump and that is what we need to understand"
John Oliver did a spectacular job of saying almost exactly that. But he is on HBO and has a much smaller audience.
Aside from that? I guess we had Walz playing Madden with AOC a few times?
It feels like Democrats are still running TV ads and phone banking. Whereas republicans are bringing out ALL the grifters to push their side.
really good insight and it sounds like a good opportunity for the DNC to find those channels rather than give up and court suburban conservatives.
Well said. Every time someone says that Kamala "was not likeable" I just assume "I don't want no women in office"
An even older candidate would have absolutely lost in 24. He may have won in 16, but more likely he loses but gets a bigger share of the popular vote than Hilary did.
Trump is going to be the oldest presidenr we've had, why do you think Bernies age would make him less popular? 24 literally went to the old guy.
Yet, he literally, didn't win....
My heart belongs to Bernie.
The left really should actually organize and form a secret party of political actors who run as republicans to disrupt the vote.
They should just run fake centrists in the Democratic Party and then turn all progressive when they get into office.
Like centrists did with the fake progressives Fetterman and Sinema.
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How does that make any sense compared to moderates going to the Republican party?
Like, the current Dems are "progressives" who want what every other 1st world country got decades ago, and "moderates" who want what Republicans wanted decades ago...
Why are the "moderates" trying to moderate the Dem party instead of the one that's so far from center they're openly fascist?
If they had stayed where they were in the 80s, then the furthest right we'd have been in 2024 was Kamala
Do you understand how ridiculous it is to say everyone to the left of them should go R?
Absolutely best case scenario we end up with two modern Dem parties and that fixes nothing.
But if the moderates go to the Republican party?
They'd get what they want, they can be pro-fracking. They can be for genocide, they can be for politicians using insider knowledge to make millions off the stock market, they can be for the end of political donations regulations.
And have total party unity on all those topics, while moderating the Republicans so they run McCains instead of trumps.
But that's hard.
And moderates have never been fighters.
The only way they'll go moderate Republicans, is if Dems kick them the fuck out of running the party.
They did it in 08, they'll do it again if we get a progressive to the general. It's not a problem either because we'll gain waaaaay more votes than we lose.
They would last MAYBE one term before they were instantly primaried and removed from power.
The reason manchin and sinema are so destructive is that they were from INCREDIBLY purple states. Going up against them would just split the vote and guarantee the republican candidate one. fetterman is more of a special case and time will tell on him.
The other? To get elected as a magat you need to be a pretty hateful son of a bitch. And people are already turning on AOC for removing her pronouns from her social media bio.
Because... just look at the Bernie Bros. Democrats are INCREDIBLY good at purity testing each other. So someone who pretended they wanted to enslave women and then voted for progressive legislature? They would be forever tainted and vilified... and kind of rightfully so.
or any more true.
Yet, he literally, didn't win....
This is absolutely untrue.
Dems should have just used more charts that show how actually you're not paying more for groceries and making less money adjusted for inflation.
They also should have just had Kamala drop out and replaced her with Liz Cheney, that would have gotten the moderate vote.
They also should have shamed the people who don't like funding wholesale slaughter around the world more, these are jobs we're talking about here!
They also should have just had Kamala drop out and replaced her with Liz Cheney, that would have gotten the moderate vote.
Let's take a look the other Republican politicians that endorsed Harris:
- Anthony Scarramucci
- Adam Kinzinger
- Arnold Schwarzenegger
- Geoff Duncan
- Alberto Gonzalez
- William Webster
- Jeff Flake
- Fred Upton
- Liz Cheney
These are all former politicians who either sent out media or actively campaigned to support Harris. But Liz Cheney was the bridge too far. Gee, I wonder what's different about Liz Cheney compared to literally everybody else on that list.
Liz Cheney was never the fucking problem. If Liz Cheney endorsing Harris was supposedly the breaking point for you, you were never going to vote Harris to begin with.
They also should have shamed the people who don’t like funding wholesale slaughter around the world more, these are jobs we’re talking about here!
Ok, now answer this:
How does allowing Trump to return to power make any of this any better in any way?
How does allowing Trump to return to power not make all of this exponentially worse?
How does allowing Trump to return to power benefit you in any way?
Lol love the smoke. I voted for Harris, even encouraged my irl friends and family to. I just think that tacking to the right is insane.
Cheney's the one I happened to hear the most about and they're all shitbirds, but go off about the misogyny.
I'm the parent of a trans kid, I'm at a real risk of being chased out of the fucking country right now or maybe just thrown in jail, based on the chitchat around the watercooler now by both Dems and Rs. I've already been chased out of one home by bigots empowered by these pieces of shit.
I absolutely didn't want Trump to win. His win emboldens right wing terrorists across the country.
My criticisms are genuine and valid. I'm describing to you the things that put people off with less to lose than people like me and the people I love. The Democratic party deserves to burn for this, but instead they'll all be #resistance and send out more fundraising texts while the rest of us suffer. The lesson they'll most likely take from this is the one people like you seem to be taking "we can't run a woman because misogyny and we need to start burning leftists because we're not right wing enough."
Lol love the smoke. I voted for Harris, even encouraged my irl friends and family to. I just think that tacking to the right is insane.
Cheney’s the one I happened to hear the most about and they’re all shitbirds, but go off about the misogyny.
You're proving my point for me. Schwarzenegger is a career Republican, endorsed Harris, and is infinitely more influential than Liz Cheney could ever dream of being. But nobody had a problem with him. Kinzinger sat right next to Cheney at the J6 hearings and endorsed Harris, but nobody has a problem with him. Anthony Scaramucci. Michael Cohen. Former Trump associates and aides up and down the GOP political spectrum.
But Cheney -- who, to remind you, is a Republican who sacrificed her political career to stand up to Trump in the first place -- is the straw that supposedly broke their backs. Gee, I wonder why that is.
And y'all act as if Cheney herself was running for office. She wasn't. She was run out of politics. She was not up for election. Her policies were not ballot initiatives. Her entire campaign was saying "Look, we don't agree on anything outside of the fact that Trump cannot return to power." But that was just too much. I mean, what was it that set her apart from her equally or more prominent male counterparts who also endorsed Harris? I guess we'll just never know......
I’m the parent of a trans kid, I’m at a real risk of being chased out of the fucking country right now or maybe just thrown in jail, based on the chitchat around the watercooler now by both Dems and Rs. I’ve already been chased out of one home by bigots empowered by these pieces of shit.
Of course you are. I absolutely believe you, because nobody on the internet would lie about things that can't be proven in order to give the illusion of "credibility".
I absolutely didn’t want Trump to win. His win emboldens right wing terrorists across the country.
The Democratic party deserves to burn for this, but instead they’ll all be #resistance and send out more fundraising texts while the rest of us suffer. The lesson they’ll most likely take from this is the one people like you seem to be taking “we can’t run a woman because misogyny and we need to start burning leftists because we’re not right wing enough.”
Of course, it's the Democrat Party's fault, and has nothing at all to do with voters who sat home and allowed a dictator to return to power because his opponent was not the omnipotently perfect candidate.
And I'm going to challenge you to answer these questions:
How does allowing Trump to return to power make this situation better in any way?
How does allowing Trump to return to power not make everything exponentially worse?
How does allowing Trump to return to power benefit you and your community in any meaningful way?
Because the only answers I've been able to get to these questions from people like you are silence, insults, and downvotes.
Since the thin rainbow line isn't going to answer it:
All of those questions boil down to the same thing libertarians were telling kids in the 90s. They want to push the country/world to the breaking point with the expectation that they will come out on top in the revolution. Which works especially well in a culture where guns have more rights than children and EVERYONE thinks they are the totally no-homo love child of John Matrix and Captain Price.
I like to lurk at Restera when I am bored and it was REAL funny to watch all the folk in the "Socialism OT" get mass banned around the time they got bought out (I think MMO Network quietly owns them?). because suddenly having swarms of people openly talking about wanting guns for violent uprisings became a no no.
And the other reason I decided to reply to this: Just because someone understands that trans rights are human rights doesn't mean they support all civil rights. Trans folk learned the hard way just how many Ls and Bs are TERFs, for example. Bisexuals continue to get "pick a side" shit from the G and the Ls. And so forth.
Because it is the same with racism. Understanding that racism against your skin color or even your friend's skin color doesn't mean that you care about racism against ALL skin colors. Just ask us AAPI folk (and watch as we instinctively explain that our parents somehow became white supremacists rather than acknowledging that we get shit on by all our "allies" any time it is convenient).
EVERYONE thinks they are the totally no-homo love child of John Matrix
Gotta give props for the Commando reference alone.
You got me bro.
I'm a secret Trump shill encouraging local mutual aid and how the Democrats could/should have won.
Hey, if you get your way me and everybody like me won't be a problem anymore, grats on the dub.
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