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The EU has to start to replace NATO. That at least means some shared assets like maybe ballistic missile defense, AWACS and similar assets. Combined procurement would also be a great idea. Something like ESA, but with some common EU funding as well.
well, sure, but with Trump going back to the big chair, and working against European interests in favor of Russian and Saudi ones, Europe is in a very bad spot, and is going to have to start making deal with Putin. no one wants to hear this, and I'm sorry for what is about to happen to Ukraine.
And i guess Taiwan will join the mainland soon without the US help china wont wait long
They don't have to make deals with Putin, he can't handle the EU, and America will only help him economically. The EU is the last democratic super block, they need to stand up for those of us that still want democracy to survive. I'm Canadian, we're fucked. Japan just signed a comprehensive security pact with the EU. Obviously they have fascist leaders inside the house as well, but really, NATO is dead, we need them to step up. Here's hoping, with little conviction.
I'm Canadian too and yes we are
Europe is big enough to manage without the us. If we start working together. Starting with building up a defence industry quickly. That won’t be pretty for the US MIC, but that’s Trump’s problem.
ok. show me. see you in two years. good luck wit ze germans.
I’m not saying it will happen. Just that it can be done with enough cooperation. And given the scale of the threat, it may happen
Yep. Sorry our politics are so absolutely fucked, everyone. This is the end of Pax Americana. We’re going isolationist, and probably also fascist and theocratic. I’m going to leave the country.
He's right. The US can't be relied on for the next four years, at minimum. Hell, parts of the apparatus might be turned against European security.
Please, look after yourselves.
It's not just about the next 4 years, we can't base our defense on a country we can only rely on for 4 years at a time.
There were already problems with Bush Jr. then Trump once, and now Trump again.
You'd have to be insane to believe this is just a one or two off, and things will get back to normal.
Normalcy regarding NATO ended already with Bush.
The times where USA was the deciding factor in most world policies, because USA was backed up by the majority of the global economy is over.
USA loses just as much as Europe and many other US allies. Trump said our so called friends are our true enemies. Trump believes Canada, UK, EU etc are enemies, and he has said directly that Russia and China are "not so bad". Despite Russia is invading in Europe, and threatening nuclear war, and China is behaving ever more aggressively in the China sea and against Taiwan, and in general against their neighbors.
@Buffalox @PugJesus #natoisdead died today.
I don't think NATO is dead, but NATO allies can't rely on USA, and USA was by far the biggest military force in NATO.
Everything else was mostly built to support American forces, which in case of an article 5 situation is the commander of the NATO forces.
Yeah.
Hasn't been in the last 8 years. At least.
The world can't keep building around a strong USA.
US can’t be relied on for the next four years, at minimum.
Probably Optimistic :(
I don't think the US has been reliable since 2016 at the latest. And honestly after this... I don't think it ever will be again.
And what Trump is likely to destroy in the coming years will take ages to rebuild, assuming it ever is.
We all hope it will be enough to shock the European governments into cooperating for once, but the odds are really stacked against that, even if some are willing.
I guess this will be the end of NATO. Such a dark future.
I don't think that's it, but I do think it will endure massive strain.
Yes Macron said this back in 2017
literally point number one:
- A Europe that guarantees security in all its aspects
In terms of defence, Europe must have a joint intervention force, a joint defence budget and a joint doctrine for action. We need to encourage the swift creation of a European Defence Fund, permanent structured cooperation, and supplement them with a European intervention initiative that better integrates our armed forces at all stages.
and what has changed since then and what is being implemented?
Back then, Germany was barely warming up to the idea of a EU military. Now it seems to be a done deal, the European motor is going to churn and Poland seems to want to be part of it.
Poland doesn't want to be the welcome mat again.
Any decent EU military needs a common EU foreign policy. Both of those need treaty changes. Also Macron says a lot about Europe, but when he got the opportunity for action tends to fall short. France was in a great position to lead on Ukraine aid, but did not perform that amazingly.
EDIT: EU ammo purchases for Ukraine have been launched and some EU military organizational work as well, such as EU missions in Mali, the Red Sea and some other places. Also some good cooperation such as Germany and Netherlands integrating their armies.
Organisation is actually pretty good at the battalion level, there's plenty of EU Battlegroups integrating neighbouring armies on a deep level -- or at least making them acquainted with each other. Gotta know the MRE exchange rates. And that's not counting stuff that you mentioned, like the Dutch land army being rolled into German C&C or the German/French brigade.
What's lacking are strategic C&C capabilities on the EU level: There's just too few of them, there should be more cooperation on that level (member states have those kinds of capabilities) which is exactly what the "EU army" thing is about, operationally. Although it has to be said that push come to shove, with so many EU members in NATO, everyone would just re-assign everything NATO to the EU should the NATO fall flat. Armies have scrambled into fighting stances from worse positions.
Macron could lead Europe, yes, but first he has to manage to lead France.
Europe is going to have to get proactive about it's security too. Just defending themselves from Putin and Xi won't be enough.
Everyone blaming Trump (fuck that guy) is missing the forest for the trees.
Europe should have ceased relying on the United States for security as soon as it substantially recovered from WWII. That it didn't has been a bone of contention since before the collapse of the U.S.S.R.
The US benifited from the slavish dependence of european countries on it, and the good business conditions that came with it. This started to change with the EU and in particular with the introduction of the euro.
I guess that it's time for civilized Europe to become a military powerhouse once again.
You're right. Also I can't believe we wasted the 4 years under Biden and now are again caught with our pants down.
Yes yes yes!
Fuck Orbath and let's rally around democracy and helping Ukraine!
It was Poland in WW2. It's Ukraine now. Poland remembers.
@LaFinlandia well, that's been true since 1949..
it's only the Europeans who are suddenly waking up this. DE have been underperforming NATO slackers since day 1.
Now the chickens come home to roost.
To be fair, it really looked like we were about to achieve world peace like 15 years ago. EU didn't expect russia to start a war etc.. In my region they minimized the military over and over, as it seemed we had no enemies.
@lurch True, but it seems that since 1991 the Poles and Romanians have operated under a very different perspective and understanding of history. Probably because the threat was closer to their front door.