It's a theoretical argument anyways. Right now the Russians have zero interest in a ceasefire as they are consolidating their territorial gains in the east.

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[–] w_ortiz@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I don't like Zelenskiy but people saying Ukraine is responsible for this war, you have cognitive dissonance (big time).

[–] Stoned_Ape@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

people saying Ukraine is responsible for this war

I never heard anyone say that. Who the fuck would say something ridiculous like that? People either say "It's only Russia" or "It's the fucking NATO!". But "It's Ukraine"? Never heard that at all.

[–] agarorn@feddit.de 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I heard the Russian propaganda that Russia "had" to interfere to save Russians in Ukraine being oppressed by "Nazi" Selensky. Complete crap, but that's what some are arguing.

[–] Stoned_Ape@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Eh... I'm not saying that Russia is a pure country full of love for every human being. Humans can be quite shitty, and that's true for Russia as well as any other part of the world, and equally true for most governments.

But... there WAS an extremely cruel civil war going on in the Ukraine, and it was between "pro-west" Ukrainians and "pro-russia" Ukrainians. That's a fact. 14,000 people died in that civil war from 2014 to 2022. That's before the war started.

I have no idea if Selensky is a Nazi, but the truth is that he sure does employ a lot of people who are incredibly obvious Nazis. Right down to Nazi tattoos and all that shit.

That's not some weird fantasy, that's a fact. The only weird thing is that so many people choose to act as if that is a completely normal thing to have: Multiple militarized (sic!) Nazi battalions working for the state, paid by the state, with weapons provided by the state (and their friends).

Everybody can have their own opinion about this, but these are facts. Very obvious and provable facts.

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)

I have no idea if Selensky is a Nazi, but the truth is that he sure does employ a lot of people who are incredibly obvious Nazis. Right down to Nazi tattoos and all that shit.

As does Putin. All the way down to paying obvious Nazi mercenaries to do his dirty work around the world. Oh and the Chechnyan Islamists that Putin has deployed as part of the official Russian army are hardly better. And that are also very obvious and provable facts.

There is no moral right side in this conflict other than that the civilians of one side, the Ukrainians, are those most effected and that Ukraine definitely did not start this war with Russia.

[–] Stoned_Ape@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

The whole world is affected by this. Ukrainian and Russian men are affected, because they fight and die in this war. And you're right, what you said are also facts.

We should stress every single government who has something to gain from this to stop what they are doing, and let people live in democracy and peace. That's a fucking long way to go, but better to start that way before WWIII, and not after. I prefer that very much.

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[–] thervingi@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

I think Ukraine believed until the very end that Western support would stop Russians from attacking.

Ukraine made the mistake of trying to reclaim Luhansk and Donetsk, even though the Russian side is clearly stronger.

[–] poVoq@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (13 children)

And Zelenskiy is also rather driven by a strong nationalistic sentiment in the remaining parts of Ukraine and the political establishment.

Some leftist Ukrainians have told me that if he would diverge from that current stance it would be likely that he would be forced to resign rather soon.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (27 children)

Ukrainian army was at its peak when the war started. It's been significantly reduced in capacity since, and the weapons that the west sends come nowhere close to replacing what was lost. If Ukraine couldn't win with its original force, why would anybody expect it to win with a hodgepodge of western weapons and a decimated army. Even western publications are starting to grudgingly accept that there is no path towards Ukraine winning this war.

What's actually happening is that Ukraine continues to lose territory. The longer this war goes on the more territory Ukraine will lose, and end up in an increasingly worse bargaining position.

[+] varjolintu@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago (18 children)

There is no path towards Ukraine getting any territory back. They're losing between 9 and 10k people a month, this is not sustainable for any army. Geopolitics isn't about trust, it's about finding compromises that everyone can live with. This is what people in the west can't get through their skulls. The west is no longer in a position where it can dictate what happens globally, and unless the west relearns how to do diplomacy we'll be seeing a lot more conflicts happening going forward.

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[–] gigamo@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

So, he's condemning Ukrainians to continue dying for no reason. I didn't expect them to take the "to the last Ukrainian"-position this literally.

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

Interesting tidbit - He specified the territories claimed in February - meaning not Crimea.

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