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Americans: It's all that gosh-darn SOCIALISM that's causing this mess! Because socialism is when all the rich fat cats at the top keep all the earnings for themselves. Fucking dirtbag woke socialists!
And no lessons were learned that day.
Even Mangione has proved undoubtedly that he doesn't entirely understand the very issue that radicalized him. (If he isn't just a patsy, of course)
I think he's just kinda an ordinary person who grew up privileged. He has fairly standard techbro style libertarian beliefs, but he also has criticisms of some of the influencers he watches, and didn't seem to like Peterson very much. He also seems to be an environmentalist, and I think he seemed to have become more anti-corporation based on the manifesto released (obviously assuming he did it).
Him being a privileged but ordinary guy who still got radicalized reflects a lot more strongly on the plight of everyone who isn't one of the owner class. It doesn't matter that he was relatively wealthy, he still wasn't one of them.
What information has come out that makes you say the last paragraph? I'm not doubting it's validity in the slightest (I don't think this guy is exactly an infallible source of wisdom), just haven't seen a lot directly from him that would flesh his views out that much.
He was pretty pro-Musk and pro-Peter Thiel and certainly wasn't a paragon of leftist thought. While being decently educated and well traveled, he seemed to have a lot of faith in technolibertarian ideals.
I'd say that's clear from his Twitter and Reddit histories. It doesn't mean he's a frothing-at-the-mouth MAGA nut, but it also doesn't mean he's a dyed-in-the-wool leftist who understands the issues.
Further, like most people, he only became radicalized when a serious injury impacted his own life. It didn't make him question the whole system of capitalism, just healthcare.
And all that's fine and not meant to be an indictment one way or another about the guy, but more it's meant to point out that like most Americans, he's seemingly a little confused about larger issues. Which also makes sense since he's only 26, learning about it all takes time.
Finally, I'm still not 100% convinced a bunch of this is just contrived police bullshit to pin it on a patsy, and that's why his motives seem confused. Although I wouldn't be surprised if he's just lacking education and confused, like most Americans.
he seemed to have a lot of faith in technolibertarian ideals.
he did not site musk in the supposed "manifesto".
he did site some other people, not sure who. i think that would more indicative on his position.
i have hard time believing any of this but this he is alt right narrative is secondary to his act of revolt. it aint like he can do the entire capitalist in one job. he picked his target and simple, direct message.
I know it's probably a bit exaggerated on purpose but also in European countries it's definitely not zero. We are in a significantly better situation than the US, that's fot sure. Our problems aren't remotely comparable. But also here, it can happen that certain treatments aren't covered, also here there are (few) people without health insurance and also here people can lose their job or never find a job in the first place due to illness related issues or disabilities.
As said, much better but also definitely not 0.
There's also the issue of waiting times - you might need care somewhat urgently, but need to either wait for multiple months or pay (or hope that when the issue becomes more immediately life-threatening they can handle it in time). Public healthcare isn't perfect, and at least in many places still needs a lot of work.
I always dislike this take because it pretends the US doesn't have this exact issue. I've known people with less than ideal insurance who had very few doctors to pick from in-network and would take months to get an appointment.
Long wait times still happens in the US. Just like it can happen in public healthcare.
Pedant rant:
I take issue with 'needs a lot of work', though it is common phrasing. It promotes the false idea that 'business is more efficient' by making it sound like the public administrators are too dumb to know how to do their job.
The real issue, in most jurisdictions, is that it needs more and stable funding, and less political interference.
Well that and not to mention that politicians abroad do the exact same thing they do in the US. I know the British for instance have a Conservative Party that have repeatedly attacked their healthcare system in order to make privatized insurance seem better.
And then the issues caused by a lack of funding get used in the US to say “SEE! This system doesn’t work!”
Which is the logical equivalent of watching your friend baking pies with not enough filling and deciding to instead pay 4x the price for a pie that you won’t even get your promised slice of. Oh and the pie you get occasionally is made with the meat of other people who were also promised a pie and paid for it.
So, no one in those countries became homeless and bankrupt because of an illness and lost their job? I am asking genuinely because I wouldn't know.
This is hyperbole. Healthcare cost might be covered, but there are a lot more expenses with being sick. Social support and housing support in the UK is laughable. Good luck if you cant work because of disability. The hospital will keep you alive.....and then discharge you to the street.
Still better than America though.
True ... even here in Canada social systems are not as good as they could be ... but imagine trying to access shitty social services AND PAYING FOR MEDICAL SERVICES... or worse being in over your head because of medical debt!
Met a homeless guy once who had had his jaw broken over some change. Even he was able to go to the hospital to get fixed up. It didn’t solve his myriad other problems but at least even he could get that taken care of.
Any system which would have turned him away should be burned to the ground and the people who built said system should have the flesh flayed from their bones, slowly.
No, it’s an exaggaration. According to StreetSmart Australia 14% of people became homeless due to becoming unemployed suddenly
With that said we do have MUCH better social welfare programs here in Australia than the US, though there is always more that could be done
Danish healthcare is covered but good luck getting any treatment
When my dad was diagnosed with late stage prostate cancer they assembled a team for him, got him all the tests and scans and began treatment essentially immediately. Uncle with leukaemia was basically the same experience. He had a bone marrow transplant in addition to all the regular chemo stuff. Total bill came to $0 but they do gouge you for parking. Need a joint replacement? You're gonna have to wait, but for life and death you get the treatment you need pretty quick
You have to wait in the US too, but we pretend our times are better.
Americans: ... OH YEAH! .... now lets count how many Aircraft Carriers each country has!! ... U! ... S! ... A! ......... U! ... S! ... A! ........ U! ... S! ... A! ..... pulls a muscle from over exerting themselves, has to go to the hospital and pay for treatment
They want to have the freedom to be able to pay for treatment
It's a free country ... as long as you can afford it
.... and also ...
“That's why they call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.” - George Carlin
I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.
Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.
I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.
I don't think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon
There are public health systems that just won’t offer that operation. Or you’ll have a 1.5 year waiting list. So in the end, unless you’re rich and pay for private insurance, it comes out as the same.
(Edit: since someone thought my take is because I’m american and don’t understand. I’m european, have lived most my life in europe, this is from lived experience)
People in Australia do experience medical bankruptcy. It's incredibly rare now. But it's true. But it used to be so much worse before we had a public health system. And health outcomes were worse as well. And it cost more.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-18/bob-hawke-what-did-australia-have-before-medicare/11124180
Yeah, that happens sometimes. But in this case the price of an operation will be drastically cheaper.
I had this situation in Germany, there was a minor operation I needed to have which was not life threatening so the one that insurance covered had a waiting period, so I decided to go pay out of pocket and it was around 800 euro. The cheapest price I could find in US for it started at 11000 dollars.
there's still waiting lists in the US.
Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you're the one bullshitting.
The most "extreme" it can get in such systems is that they won't pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they're not as good.
Even then, sometimes they will if it's actually worth it (as in: for something that's a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).
That's "your quality of life won't be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they'll only pay for a not as expensive one", not "death panels".
People in those countries absolutelly aren't going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.
PS: For avoidance of confusion, by Universal Healthcare I mean countries were the State provides the Healthcare and you get it without paying, not the so-called "Mixed Systems" that also exist in Europe (for example in Germany and The Netherlands) and which have Mandatory Healthcare Insurance for all residents, though much more regulated than in the US and with a Public Provider for the less well off. Mixed Systems do have some of the problems of the US System and massivelly depend on the strength of local regulations and the seriousness of the Regulator to not decay into the same kind of situation as the US since the Private Insurance Companies there have the very same natural tendency to shaft their clients as the ones in the US and only the local regulations stop them.
Sorry then.
I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.
The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.
It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.
But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.
I mean there's definitely people who go bankrupt due to not being able to work due to illness. If you're a private entrepreneur (or what's the correct term E; self-employed was what I meant) for example then that stuff can take you down easily.
It's almost like .. universal healthcare would make our economy stronger and the insurance companies are the leaches..
Some people don't want universal health care because they don't want their taxes going towards other people's health care. What they seem to fail to understand is that the exact same thing happens with private health insurance, and some of the money goes towards the insurance company's profits. Universal health care would make things cheaper.
Apparently no one is 100% sure whether bloodsucking worms were named after doctors that used them, or doctors were named after the blood sucking worms that they commonly prescribed.
"Leech" being an old timey name for a medical doctor, possibly predating the term "doctor" which just came from "teacher" like "doctrine" or something.
Lol there are definitely treatments that are very expensive and not covered by some insurances. This is not a "statistic", just opinion. USA has it way worse of course. But I remember my dad having to lend money from friends because some of my mom's cancer treatments were not covered.
Edit: Also wtf why is this in shitpost
Even with the issues it has (and there are a LOT of issues— too much to name here), i would still take the canadian healthcare system over the US’. My mom’s medication costs thousands of dollars, and it’s all covered. We wouldn’t be able to afford it otherwise and she’d likely be dead if it weren’t for the coverage.
Well yes,.. but no, you can face significant financial burdens if someone in your family needs living assistance, such as a parent, and the state steps in to cover the costs. The law allows the state to require adult children to contribute to these expenses to a certain degree, but only after all assets of the elder or disabled person have been exhausted ("bankrupting" said person so to speak).
While this is not the same as bankrupting an entire family for life, it can indeed become a heavy financial strain if the parents were not adequately insured or financially prepared for such situations. The obligatio, however, is subject to strict thresholds and limits, such as exemptions for children earning below €100,000 annually, ensuring hardship is avoided.
Edit: "100.000k" sounds like much, but a German Dad providing for 2 kids and a stay at home wife would need this as a bare minimum to pay off the debt for the house 25km from the next medium city, in the next 20 years. No vacation outside Europe. Nothing fancy. If a parent then requires 1200€ per month, it's a massive strain.... so yeah, not bankrupting but painful.
OK, i need to chime in here, there is illness related work loss here in Canada. Also, you can go bankrupt from dental work if you cannot afford dental insurance or your job doesn't offer it (which most jobs that are not union/higher corp don't). You can literally die from poor dental hygiene, and even if you brush your teeth every day and floss, that doesn't mean your scott free from visiting the dentist.
In it's first three months, Canada's new Dental care plan has 75% of dentists signed up and 2.3m people.
As part of a phased rollout, the government began accepting claims for dental coverage for seniors in May and expanded eligibility to children under the age of 18 and Canadians with a valid Disability Tax Credit certificate in June.
Remaining eligible Canadians are scheduled to gain access in 2025.
I don't know about the other countries, but In France there definitely still are problems, check this recent story https://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/a-la-une/on-lui-refuse-l-acces-aux-urgences-elle-accouche-sur-le-parking-de-l-hopital
A pregnant women was refused entrance to a private hospital she was forced to give birth on the parking lot in front of the entrance.
Sure the USA have an awful system but it doesn't mean it's perfect everywhere else. There are people that are bankrupt because of medical treatment here too. And we also have corrupt CEOs making it worse
Every country needs a Luigi.
USA have an awful system but it doesn't mean it's perfect everywhere else
I don't think that's the message in this post either, so... The message is, it's just far, far worse with the system they have, due to all healthcare being privatized.
At least that is my understanding. 🤷♂️
Yes of course,
I replied to this post because it is one of many making bold claims about healthcare in other countries than the US, most of the times claims about European countries healthcare made by US users are false and/or misleading.
Sure the US has a very bad system, I see it and recognize how bad it is, but it's a tad annoying to see stuff like that, that falsely say we have "0" bankruptcy or that "everything" is covered by public healthcare, that our life expectancy is that much higher, etc... Most claims are unsourced and blatantly false or largely inflated for shock value.
In France for example we have many issues with our public healthcare, not everything is covered (dental isn't for example), we aren't covered for the full amount unless we pay for private coverage on top (called "mutuelle") which often are linked to your employer, we have to pay up front and then get reimbursed later, geographically there are areas with very few hospitals, the poorer often can't afford to be sick because we aren't always automatically paid for sick days at work, there's a shortage of medical fields' workers, and our current political leaders have been making it worse for decades..
All that to say that from the perspective of a "European" citizen, these posts about the US system compared with ours feels like propaganda that "we should be happy with what we have" even though we really shouldn't, using false information.