this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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Steam Deck

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Given many new handhelds coming on the scene and general disinterest of Microsoft to support the market, do you think SteamOS will take place of default OS the same way Android did on phones some time ago?

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[–] Ninmi@sopuli.xyz 80 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

For the future of PC gaming I sure as hell hope so. People stick to and defend Windows as their go-to 'till the bitter end, likely not realizing Linux could be everything their Windows machine is and there is a real industry player with a lot of money making this reality right now. If we just let it.

If we would just give Linux the critical mass, we could free the last locked aspect of PC gaming, the OS itself. That way we would no longer be at the whims of Microsoft's decisions because let's face it, even Windows users hate the shit they do.

[–] verysoft@kbin.social 30 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Linux, currently, cannot handle everything Windows can unfortunately. Windows also has a massive software support advantage. Valve are in the best place to try and give Linux to the masses, but that's a lot of work and it won't have much return for them. Windows getting worse is the way Linux will get more market share, but most people are not power users and will probably just use Windows anyway as it 'just works'.

[–] EonNShadow@pawb.social 25 points 1 year ago (5 children)

The reason Valve is so heavily investing in Linux is that they know that Microsoft could - in theory - flip a switch and kill their business, especially because Microsoft themselves is a competitor to Valve in the form of Xbox and Gamepass.

It's a defensive tactic, not a money-making venture.

[–] shinjiikarus@mylem.eu 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

And realistically Microsoft has a very good moment coming up in the next few years to effectively kill Steam: Valve only delivers pre-compiled files and does not have access to source code. Therefore Valve is not only stuck with a “Windows-like environment”, they are also shackled to x86. With Apple’s M-processors reigning supreme in the laptop space with insane values for performance-to-powerdraw (and in turn heat radiation and cooling requirements), the days of x86-by-default laptops are probably numbered and more manufacturers may want to switch to ARM, to avoid unfavorable comparisons to MacBooks. With Windows for ARM Microsoft can finally kill of all traces of Win32 in WinRT, as they tried for years and force everyone to use UWP-apps from the store exclusively on ARM. Apple does leave apps behind, when updating their operating systems on a regular basis, a similar move by Microsoft wouldn’t look totally unreasonable. The switch could even happen gradually, like Apple’s Rosetta translation layer, which runs x86 apps on arm great right now, but I don’t think it will be maintained forever and support for x86 apps on macOS will end one day. Microsoft could do the same for Windows for ARM. If this happens Valve will probably have the opportunity to install games as UWP-apps, but their back catalog of Win32 .exes becomes effectively worthless. But if Win32 .exes run great through some translation layer on linux, valve can continue to sell and support their back catalog on current hardware.

[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Therefore Valve is not only stuck with a “Windows-like environment”, they are also shackled to x86.

Why are they shackled to anything? They will sell whatever the market supports. Linux doesn't care what CPU it runs on and software can be compiled for anything. Valve isn't stuck with anything, all of their stuff is virtual.
If we move to ARM, MIPS or whatever the flavour of the day will be, they'll just follow the trend.

OTOH, Microsoft has to deal with an insane amount of legacy software in the corporate space. That's probably the main reason Windows still sucks so much (although it did manage to get much better) when Mac OS managed to make a clean cut and start over.

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[–] riskable@programming.dev 23 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Windows, currently, cannot handle everything Linux can. Linux also has a massive software support advantage, running on vastly more hardware and architectures than Windows does.

Linux has already been given to the masses. People use it every day in super user friendly ways; they just don't realize they're using Linux.

The only reason people use Windows is because they don't choose it. Imagine if every PC sold had a Linux option and a Windows option that cost an extra $100. What do you think people would buy?

The same hardware running Linux will easily outperform Windows (especially at the most common end user tasks like web browsing) by a long shot. In a few days NTFS turns 30 years old FFS (LOL).

Any given hardware accessory will "just work" when plugged in to a Linux PC but Windows will require a special driver that you have to go out and find on your own at the vendor's website that will be bloated AF. It'll also reinstall it if you change the USB port LOL.

[–] verysoft@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I get it you like Linux, so do I. And I just have yet to have a smooth experience with it as a desktop and for games. We talking about the average gaming market here, nothing more, Linux is obviously very powerful and is the most used OS outside of desktops.

Most users have Nvidia cards that still do not play nicely with a lot of Linux setups, although that seems to be coming around now. Linux is a very customisable platform and it can be a lot better than Windows if you spend the time tweaking every aspect of it, but you are kidding yourself if you think Linux is better OOTB than Windows for most users. It's fine for us to stick our heads into wikis and play around in the terminal, but most people don't want to bother with all that.

I hope Linux does get more adoption so that support is further improved and I hope it reaches that tipping point where most people can pick up for their everyday machines.

[–] ag_roberston_author@beehaw.org 11 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The only reason people use Windows is because they don’t choose it. Imagine if every PC sold had a Linux option and a Windows option that cost an extra $100. What do you think people would buy?

I think they would buy windows, because the software they need to do their job only runs on windows.

[–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

because every pc runs windows, if more and more pcs default to linux even more apps gonna support it

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[–] Lowbird@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

Uh, no. I tried Linux (Mint). I hated it. It doesn't even have a damn colorblind mode... The best you can hope for is a goofy workaround with some app that's meant for devs testing colorblind modes, and that may or may not even work. Colorblind mode is a rock bottom basic accessibility feature, especially in 2023, and the most highly recommended distro for people coming from Windows doesn't even have that.

And it rather shows that average or non-Linux-nerd users, and what they need from their OS, are not a priority at all, which means the system will never be friendly or appealing to them until and unless that changes.

I also personally hated the way it wanted me to install everything from a launcher, vs downloading exe's from their owners websites that have a lot more info than the generic Linux launcher does.

I hated all the crashes, the requirement for tinkering at random times when I really just needed my PC to work reliably, and the way so many people in the Linux community look down on and/or insult everyone who asks for help with anything or has any gripe about Linux (thus assuring helpful feedback from average users won't be reporter or heard, their problems won't be fixed, and confusing UI will remain confusing and bogged down in jargon).

Linus Tech did a good youtube series on what Linux is like to encounter as a newbie. He had problems. When even one of the most popular tech/PC youtubers has problems right out the gate, how can you expect it to work for everyone else?

I want it to get better and become a real conpetitor to Windows, but it just flat out isn't yet except for specific applications like servers, and pretending it is only insures it won't ever be. The culture around it is holding it back.

Tl;dr: there are actually quite a lot of people like me who are aware of Linux and choose Windows or Mac instead.

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[–] Ninmi@sopuli.xyz 11 points 1 year ago

I specifically phrased it "could be" as people tend to believe there are 3 preferences, Mac, Linux and Windows. Linux is not one user experience, it could work exactly like your favorite OS. In the face of SteamOS already being a viable option for the average gamer as Valve is basically strong arming it to be, on Steam Deck you're not exactly doing PC gaming any good deliberately installing Windows on it. SteamOS just works.

I also think you're very misguided in thinking it won't have any return to Valve. Microsoft has to be looking at Google Play Store and whatever the Apple Store is called with a lot of envy with how they've managed to lock the entire ecosystem under their stores. This is the end result for Windows as well and its likely anti-competetive clauses are a very bad sign for a company like Valve. Decoupling PC gaming in its entirety from Microsoft's vendor lock-ins is in the best interest of all of the companies in the gaming industry, but it takes a rich private company like Valve to start doing the hard work for long term benefits instead of always chasing the short term profits.

Even if tomorrow Microsoft launched something that pulled ahead of SteamOS, it would still be in the gamers' best interest to stick with the open platform. With a consistent, large userbase on an open platform it will eventually eclipse anything Microsoft could ever muster.

[–] Secret300@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Linux, currently, cannot handle everything Windows can unfortunately.

I mean it could, companies just don't port their software because there's not enough market share to justify it. And there's not enough market share because the software isn't there. and the software isn't there....

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[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 69 points 1 year ago

Fuck I hope so

[–] dunestorm@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

IMO Steam OS is the "Windows" for handhelds. Sure there will be lots of variants of Linux with custom skins (hell even Windows itself). However, I think Steam OS has already established itself as a comfortable default for most people due to how optimized the UI is for handhelds and the fact it works out of the box for most PC games without any tinkering 🙂

[–] PastaRhythm@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

SteamOS's UI is incredible. It's not always easy for a UI to be feature rich while also being intuitive and easy to use, but Valve did a wonderful job. I love pulling up the Quick Menu to check the battery and time or tweak a setting without needing to pause the game or go back to the Home Menu.

[–] SatyrSack@lemmy.one 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

SteamOS has been out on Steam Deck for 18 months, but still no general release in sight. I wouldn't hold my breath. I think we'll just have to continue to make do with the likes of ChimeraOS/Nobara.

[–] BananaTrifleViolin@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

True. There is an unofficial release - HoloIso - which uses Valves packages but is not quite complete. Also manufacturers may be able to get access as Valve previously has been keen on getting other manufacturers to buy into it's hardware attempts (e.g. Steam PCs previously, and VR now) but I'd expect the manufacturers to be making a big deal of it if they were launching a SteamOS handheld. It seems Valve want to keep exclusivity on Steam Deck for now (which makes some sense given how successful it's been)

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[–] Shiroa@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Is there some specific feature that SteamOS brings to the table that people are looking for? So far as I know, a stripped down installation Debian or Ubuntu (Valve likes to base their packages off of Ubuntu) with an Xserver script that directly launches steam in big picture mode ought to create roundabout the same experience I would think.

[–] HyperHyperVisor@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

SteamOS 2.x was based on debian, but that hasn't been updated in years. The Steam Deck launched with SteamOS 3, which is actually built on top of arch and is much more akin to Manjaro. As for your question, it's mostly the "game mode", which uses IIRC Wayland and wraps games inside gamescope which provides a bit more control in the form of controlling frame rate, resolution, etc externally, but regardless, that can and has been achieved in custom distros. I think the main appeal of SteamOS honestly is the package of an immutable OS optimized for running games on steam. It prevents non-linux users from breaking things and tries to make it feel more like a "console" with a "desktop mode" (KDE Plasma) and "app store" (ala flatpaks). I've toyed with the idea of running it or similar on my gaming PC but always run into the difficulty of Nvidia drivers on Linux.

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[–] Carter@feddit.uk 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'd love to see the return of Steam Machines. I loved the concept back in 2014 but Linux gaming absolutely wasn't ready back then. A first party Valve Steam Machine could be a great entry point for many potential new PC gamers.

[–] Molecular0079@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd be curious what kind of APU they'd cook up for a Steam Machine because putting in a full GPU isnt economically viable right now.

[–] Carter@feddit.uk 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'd possibly argue a full GPU could be detrimental. Maybe best to aim for Steam Deck performance in a home console but with the potential for a GPU installation later on. Obviously being a home console would allow for a more power hungry but performamt APU. Maybe they could attain Series S performance whilst being a much more open platform.

[–] Molecular0079@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I agree. Full GPU doesn't seem likely. It'd be great if AMD and Valve could work together to make a decent desktop APU without the usual compromises, maybe one with M2 like performance. Even better if they could later repurpose a variation of that design to make consumer chips that fit into the AM5 socket.

Maybe Valve can also look into shared memory designs where its one unified pool for both CPU and GPU. Pretty sure Linux has support for that.

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[–] codus@leby.dev 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I at least suspect there will be a community porting some variant of SteamOS to the more popular handhelds.

[–] SatyrSack@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

ChimeraOS already works on pretty much anything.

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[–] Grass@geddit.social 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It would be a good thing. Gaming on windows has been a shit experience since everything after windows 7. I don't want to have to manually(or scriptedly) remove candy crush installer icons among other bloat shit every time I install the os just for a basic clean experience that still spies in me.

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[–] blazera@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What are these many new handhelds you speak of

[–] exscape@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Ayaneo 2 is one apparently. ROG Ally is one. And there are at least 8 more: https://retrododo.com/best-handheld-gaming-pcs/

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[–] Macaroni_ninja@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Steam OS is awesome. I consider myself a tech savvy person, yet I never felt the need to tinker with my Steam Deck to run retro games or emulate stuff since I have it (1+ year)

The library of games running natively or with minimal controller changes is so big I will probably not run out of games and Im playing more than ever.

[–] Andere@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Probably not while ARM handhelds are so popular. I think that it's a good choice for intel and AMD for now, though.

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[–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

ETA Prime always referring to "Steam Deck OS" and claiming that's the name it's widely known by is so cringe.

[–] pat277@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

I like it, if only because theres a lack of OS's that boot with controller support.

[–] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Most of the SteamOS features are also available on Windows by launching Steam in big picture mode. I use this on my desktop.

You CAN put HoloISO on these handhelds, but no companies are shipping SteamOS out of the box. The Ally comes with Windows. The Ayaneo 2 come with Windows. The AYN consoles run on Android. ONEXPLAYER ships with Windows.

While SteamOS is great and the remaining compatibility problems are mostly caused by stupid DRM bullshit, you still can't play COD or Halo on SteamOS. Linux also doesn't support new technologies like Direct Storage at the moment. Shipping Windows is a competitive advantage right now.

Of course, there are options. For example, a dual boot configuration with Windows on one partition, SteamOS on a second partition, and an NTFS volume for storing games on could work. A small sync tool would be all you need to make it possible to boot into either OS on the fly.

Or, even better, there's nothing preventing vendors from running SteamOS in a VM and passing through the hardware. You could do it the other way around, but such virtual machines get detected by the same shitty DRM that breaks games on Linux in the first place.

[–] Fubarberry@lemmy.fmhy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Every negative review of the Ally emphasized windows (and Asus armory crate) as some of the main negatives of the device. Windows gives a worse UI experience, has much higher passive power usage (which prevents you from getting actually good battery life times on low power games like Stardew), and makes things like the deck's suspend mid game impossible to implement reliability.

You also mentioned that Big Picture mode having most of the features, but it's missing the QAM and all the nice tools included with that. Asus Armory Crate is supposed to cover some of those, but has had a lot of negative feedback online for not working correctly or having significant downsides like massive deadzones. There's also a ton of nice features available through decky plugins that are very convenient to use mid game through steamOS.

Not to mention that having windows at all adds to the cost of the device. Average windows license cost for hardware manufacturers is around $50 if I remember right, and they charge more for more powerful hardware. That would be a huge price increase for something like the $400 Steam Deck.

I think SteamOS has a lot to offer, and the only downside (anticheat compatibility) will become a non-issue if steamOS becomes popular enough and companies start targeting it. I really hope to see it available on other devices.

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[–] garrett@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Note: You can actually play Halo on a Steam Deck. I've played it with friends over the internet and two of us were on a Steak Deck and Linux desktop. The other two were on Windows. It worked well.

(But, yeah, there still are a few other games that don't have anti-cheat enabled, such as Fortnite and Destiny 2.)

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[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Most of the SteamOS features are also available on Windows by launching Steam in big picture mode.

No they aren't. They're vertically integrated. I don't think you understand what the SteamOS features actually are. It's more than just a GUI.

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[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I thought it would but it's been over a year and still no one is shipping with it.

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[–] BeezKnuts@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I hope so, but only if the option to install other OS's remains an easy option. I love android but installing a different operating system on my phone is so much of a pain in the dick that it's not even worth it.

I feel like I'd probably avoid a handheld if the option to install windows wasn't there, even if I don't end up using it much.

If my choice was a default windows install with the option to install steamOS myself, or a default steamOS install with no other options, I'm choosing the windows install every time.

[–] Zpiritual@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Looking at how many celebrated ROG Ally shipping with windows I doubt it will catch on. Only possibility I see is if valve would do profit sharing with the handheld maker for purchases made in the steam store.

For a third party to ship with steam os now would essentially mean they are also supporting the largest player in the market with no gain for themselves.

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