this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
192 points (95.7% liked)

Linux

48133 readers
1048 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] KingKRool@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I am not concerned at all, mostly because I do not think that they have taken any anti-user actions recently.

There is no circumstance, where I as a user, either as a personal user or in my professional capacity as someone running production systems, am affected by their source code decision. It's only an issue if I decide I want to release a Green Hat Linux AND I want to be their customer.

The GPL does not force them to do business with me, and it does NOT require them to distribute source to me if they did not distribute the software to me. Many people may consider this move against the spirit of the GPL, and I think that's what is causing most of the anger. Well maybe it's time for a new GPL then that codifies that and explicitly says that, and start the herculean effort of driving adoption of that new license. It didn't go well for GPLv3 or AGPL.

Now the Fedora telemetry proposal... is just that, a proposal. They are being transparent about "hey we are considering this, what do y'all think?". Well, they're certainly getting feedback on what the community thinks about that.

Here, people are angry that they are even considering the idea of telemetry. This is understandable. People treat telemetry like it's a dirty word, because Microsoft and co. have made it so. Telemetry can be used for nefarious purposes, there is no doubt about that.

I believe that telemetry can be a good thing when it is done correctly. The question of whether the box should be checked by default is an important one, they need to be careful that users actually understand and having it enabled is an informed decision and not something they click past without comprehending. As long as the data collected is restricted, strictly filtered to avoid fingerprinting and leaking user data, this can be used to improve the software. Without any data on how your users experience your software, you are flying blind and throwing darts at your codebase trying to make improvements. The people filing bugs are usually not representative of the average user or their experience. Basic information like "does anyone even use this" or "how reliable is this feature" can help them prioritize their efforts.

I'll take a trust but verify approach on this. The client side code of Fedora is all open source, so if I have concerns I can take a look at exactly what it is doing and raise the alarm if there's problems. I'm sure someone will make a Fedora De-telemetrified Spin I can switch to in that case. After all Fedora is not RHEL, their source issue is orthogonal to this one.

If you made it this far, you may think I made some reasonable points... or you think I'm on Red Hat's payroll (I'm not). Well, I gave it straight as asked, this is how I feel. I'm a user if both RHEL and Fedora and I'm not planning to change that anytime soon.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Pekka@feddit.nl 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Not worried at all. Their source code controversy mostly hurts companies that want to run RHEL without paying IBM, as after these changes distos like Alma Linux and Rockey Linux might diverge more from RHEL and they will have a harder time to guarantee bug-for-bug compatibility.

Fedora is not trying to steal business and government contracts away from RHEL and as a normal user you don’t need this bug-for-bug compatibility anyway. You can just sign up for a RedHat developer account and download RHEL Server for free, this includes a GUI everything you need to run it on a workstation. You can even view the source code trough their website.

So I am not worried that CentOS stream or Fedora will go away, RedHat is not trying to hurt consumers, they just want that enterprises (that are interested in support contracts) actually pay them when they use the work they put into RHEL. If they want a free version, they can still use CentOS stream.

[–] Zeth0s@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You might not be worried for the code, but the project is a different thing. Red Hat has done some serious damage to its image (centos stream, lay off with record profits, lay off of fedora program manager, nasty circumvention of common open source practices). This will affect fedora. I am a long time debian user, but I often suggest fedora as distro for newcomers. I am not doing it again, and I believe many won't do as well.

At this point it is difficult to trust red hat on their long term commitments. At work we still use rhel, because all our sys admins are used to it, we have licenses, have been using it for ages. So there will not be a big impact for rhel on existing contracts. But on the future, I will actively try to persuade my whole department at least to move out. It is not easy for us, it will require work, but on long term I do not trust red hat/ibm.

Open source market is a difficult market for IBM's MBAs. Because trust is more important than money. This ibm problem to understand open source world has always existed. And the recent actions proves they haven't learned yet. It is a pity that rhel and fedora are the only victims here

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] yote_zip@pawb.social 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think it will be fine, but I'd personally rather not support their behavior. Arch and Debian are fine for me.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] melco@lemmy.ml 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I guess Debian had it right all along. Free and Open Source Software is important.

[–] SnailMagnitude@mander.xyz 12 points 1 year ago (22 children)

Debian had a very long and painful public debate to eventually depend exclusively on systemd, from Red Hat. I'm not so sure they choose wisely to heavily depend upon RH/IBM LGLP code.

The new release is the first ever, I think, to offer non-free software by default.

Personal opinion is that Gentoo had it right all along. They spend a lot of time & man hours ensuring pretty much anything coming from Red Hat, that isn't being filtered by Linus, is optional. They created eudev, elogind & made Gnome portable again when Red Hat tried to shut down portability. Neddy shows that you can run a bleeding edge system whilst not depending on much at all from Red Hat over the past 15yrs or so.

[–] marmalade@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

Non free firmware specifically, since it's a really bad user experience for new users to just not have things work because they don't have the option to choose to use non-free firmware.

[–] melco@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Wow awesome post, you are clearly much more up to date than I am.

Is it true that Bookworm contains non free software in the default release? If so this is sad to hear.

Ive been in the Debian camp for a while now with Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Raspbian etc. and I suffer with systemd maybe I made the wrong choice.

Since you seem very knowledgable I have a question. Why do so many, almost all distros use GNOME rather than KDE as their default DE? KDE has been around a long time, they are free and not heavily corporately sponsored and their product is at least equal or perhaps even better than GNOME. I never understood this.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (20 replies)
[–] Molecular0079@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

I am not worried at all. Fedora and CentOS Stream are upstream of RHEL and I don't see them giving up community-driven development in either of those projects.

[–] DigitalPortkey@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not remotely.

Maybe certain people should think twice about setting up an entire business model of support based on having the current company do all the engineering work, cloning it, and then taking the support contracts for it.

Both Fedora and CentOS Stream are still very much upstream. Just certain CentOS alternatives are throwing a hissy-fit/tantrum that their nice neat little "cloned distro + support" business model fell apart overnight because they built their entire business off of what's basically (not entirely) a loophole.

[–] StudioLE@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The Red Hat controversy has popped up a lot lately but this is the first time I've seen this perspective. It's the the actual reason behind the change? Was there a distro particularly guilty of doing this?

[–] nan@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oracle for ages, and Red Hat had made changes in the last to make it more difficult for Oracle (something about the kernel patches).

Rocky more recently, CIQ had been selling support contracts, including a well publicized contract at NASA very recently for a few workstations.

If it was just AlmaLinux making a free clone I’m not sure if they would have made the change or not. Obviously they got rid of the original CentOS so it might have still been on their minds. Also, they were doing a lot of packaging and debranding work to enable this that was no benefit to Red Hat, so it may have been a matter of deciding the cost and resources was more than they could justify, especially when it is essentially putting the code in yet another, third place (Stream, customer SRPMs, the git site).

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] CamilleMellom@mander.xyz 8 points 1 year ago

Rocky Linux, AlmaLinux, and Oracle Linux for example.

[–] hardcoreufo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think we haven't seen this perspective is because it's not a good take on things. After IBM bought RH they killed CentOS which was bug compatible with RHEL. A lot of devs used CentOS to be able to easily ensure compatability with RHEL. RH replaced CentOS with CentOS stream which is not bug compatible with RHEL. The community was able to move past this blunder thanks to Rocky and ALMA "rebuilding" RHEL in the spirit of the old CentOS.

Now RH has killed off the ability for the community to build a free bug compatible distro and instead want devs to register for 16 (free) RHEL testing licenses. No other major distro that I know of does this.

I'm not a dev but it seems like a good way to lose support for your platform. If you want to make money and kill clones make your distro free but charge for official support.

[–] DigitalPortkey@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

If you want to make money and kill clones make your distro free but charge for official support.

That model just does not work. For the engineering that goes into RedHat (and all the contributions back to the community they send), they just don't make enough for that to happen. Everyone just wants to shrug this off as "Oh IBM has lots of money so that's not a problem". This "make it free and charge for support" model almost never works for FOSS yet so many people want to believe it does. On an enterprise level, it just doesn't. People who want to use an enterprise distro of Linux for free also likely don't want to pay for support either, instead wanting to support it themselves. Which is all well and good but that doesn't account for the fact RHEL does all the engineering, all the building, all the testing, everything, and then puts that release up for use. All of that has to be covered somehow.

There was never any promise that you'd always be able to create a "bug compatible distro". Ever. The GPL does not cover future releases or updates and never has, and even implying that it should sets a dangerous precedent of people being entitled to what you haven't even created yet.

Rather than hearing the emotional takes from people that want to turn this into "RedHat vs the Linux Community", I strongly suggest you listen to LinuxUnplugged: https://linuxunplugged.com/517?t=506.

RedHat is still contributing everything upstream, and CentOS Stream is not going anywhere. You have full access to the source of whatever you buy.

The only thing that has changed here is that the loophole that Alma and Rocky were using to create a RHEL clone and then offer support for it (Which is literally RedHat's own business model) is gone. Those two are throwing a tantrum because they got to set up a nice easy business model where they literally did nothing more than clone RHEL and then offer support for it and that free lunch is over. That's it. They don't contribute back to RHEL, they don't do anything to help development. They sold themselves as the "free" or "cheaper" alternative and now they're getting burned for building their entire business of the work done by RHEL.

Everything else in this story is noise, drama, and unnecessary emotion.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Single users really don't need to worry much. If you really want to use Fedora, keep using it. But even if you get burned somehow in the future, it's not hard to switch to some other distro. Just make sure your data is relatively portable. You do that normally, right?

If you're a sysadmin, though, you should think carefully with anything Red Hat based.

[–] theshatterstone54@feddit.uk 16 points 1 year ago

Fedora is community owned, it's just the upstream for RedHat. RHEL is based on Fedora. So I don't really think there's a cause for concern, unless RedHat uses its powers within the Fedora project (some people involved with the Fedora project are RedHat employees) to make things worse for Fedora but if they do, Fedora will lose users, so RHEL will lose free testers.

[–] Raphael@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Red Hat controls Fedora, anyone saying Fedora is independent is just spouting nonsense.

I've been on Fedora all this time because I loved Red Hat. Oh, how wrong I was.

[–] SymbolicLink@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

Yeah I am a bit salty about all of the whole "Opt-out" telemetry thing. I know its just a proposal but just feels a bit slimy.

Fedora is upstream of RHEL which is supposed to result in a mutually beneficial arrangement where Fedora users are essentially testers / bug reporters of code that will eventually make its way into RHEL. Its just part of the collaborative, fast, and "open" nature of FOSS. Adding sneaky/opt-out telemetry just feels like a slap in the face.

super small ex. I am a big Podman user these days, and have submitted a few bug reports so the Podman github repos which has been fixed by RedHat staff. This makes it faster for them to test and release stable code to their paying customers. Just a small example but it adds up across all users to make RHEL a better product for them to sell. Just look into the Fedora discussion forum, there is so much bug reporting and fixing going on that will make its way to RHEL eventually.

Making and arguing for "Opt-out only" telemetry is just so tone deaf to the Linux community as a whole, but I think they got the memo after the shit storm that ensued over the past few days.

But HEY one of the biggest benefits of Linux is that I can pretty painlessly distro hop. I've done it before and can do it again. All my actual data is on my home server so no sweat off my back. openSUSE is looking pretty good, maybe I will give it a try.

[–] mpiepgrass@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Not even a little bit.

[–] rawfox@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

When kernel-0.96 came public, i checked it out on my Amiga as it was released for Motorola chips as m68k .. and still is :)

Then RedHat came with their first distro, so i had it running on a Motorola 68060 for some time. It was the swap from i386 to i686 and later, with Vesa local bus, my Amiga lost the performance race. Then, a good friend gifted me an i686 PC. WindowsXP was on it and boah, what a crazy shit that was. Filenames and libraries had stupid names and in a file hirarchy, everything was just dumb there, so installed RedHat on that and since then it was all good.

Fedora came, RedHat closed their enterprise buisness sector and then we had Fedora. Up until doday im using it and enjoy the community, wich has a very scientific and innovative spirit. Fedora was always one of those distros, going new ways on a stable and solid base, thanks to RedHat.

Even if RedHat would drop out completely with their Fedora support - wich will never happen - Fedora would be mature enuff to survive. Should Fedora nontheless go for another path wich im not happy with, ill change, but it does not look like that

So nope, im not worried a single bit^^

[–] danielton@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

To be honest, very worried. I used Fedora as my main for about a decade but these days, I just don't care for it anymore, and every piece of news that comes out about IBM and Red Hat makes me even more worried about the future. Sure, it's ostensibly community-driven, but Red Hat has historically been very involved with it.

Hopefully I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong, but Arch and Debian seem to have the best chances at a good future these days.

[–] Andere@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It inspired me to move on. I'm running OpenSUSE now. I don't really want to be involved in RedHat-related products in any way. Between redhat and the talk of telemetry, I'm out.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] fruitywelsh@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

I'm choosing to divest and look for more opportunities to help community ran distros to better fill that niche. Maybe NixOS or Guix as system os and rke2 and flatpak for the rest of services and apps.

Only a little. The only thing I'm really worried about is IBM (maybe secretly) forcing Red Hat to reduce or cut its involvement with Fedora to save money. Without Red Hat's help, Fedora might struggle, but I don't think it will die or be corrupted as a result of whatever's going on.

Also, while I don't have the full picture, I heard that the whole "closed source" thing was an exaggeration in the first place. So maybe there isn't really much to worry about. We'll just have to see of course. I like Fedora a lot, but I can just switch if I need to, so I'm not really letting this worry me.

[–] Kristof12@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

IDK, I don't use Fedora anymore and all the redhat problems lol using RPM sounds meh

[–] angrymouse@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I don't give a shit about fedora but I'm very worried about the future of Linux as a whole, red hat has an undisputable importance in the Linux ecossistem and these movements maybe are a signal that IBM don't give a fuck about that

[–] Granixo@feddit.cl 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)
load more comments (2 replies)

@shapis
I'm gonna keep using fedora for now, largely becouse I don't want to go to the effort to set certain things up all over again, but I'm at least paying enough attention to what's going on that if they do something I see as to far I'll switch

Still not sure what too though

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I don't see the big deal around the issue. It does not impact me as a non enterprise user.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Lolors17@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

If the time comes, that Fedora doesn't fit me, I will go back to good old Debian.

[–] dpkonofa@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As someone who hasn’t really been following, what anti-user decisions are those?

[–] nan@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Source code distribution change is the big one now, on top of getting rid of traditional centos: https://news.itsfoss.com/red-hat-restricts-source-code/

I don’t really see them as anti-user, in the sense that if you are a subscriber your position has never changed and they are happy to provide support in exchange for money. They do restrict your ability to redistribute (they threaten to cancel your subscription) which I am not a fan of.

Fedora is also looking at adding telemetry. They are calling it opt-in but also defaulting the checkbox to “on”, at least in discussions.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago

You know what's funny? Most of the time, when something asks me to opt in for telemetry, I strongly consider doing so, then look into what's collected and end up deciding I'm okay with it.

But when I have to opt out, or the default is selected to opt in, I just lose trust entirely.

And I'll jump through hoops to block anything I can't replace that doesn't even ask.

Like, I totally understand why some telemetry is necessary for continued development. I'm down with that. But the shadier it is, the less willing I am to allow it.

[–] cleftalhorizon@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 1 year ago

i use arch btw

[–] Nuuskis@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago

Not at all. There are many many projects out there which should be killed anyway. Just stop using them.

[–] settinmoon@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

Not at all. RHEL is still the standard in my field of work and I'm not seeing that going away any time soon. So it makes sense for me to stay in the ecosystem for career development. If I see any evidence of future changes in Fedora that compromises privacy or security I might change my mind.

[–] donio@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

Not worried at all, I've moved on many years ago.

[–] eleitl@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

I don't care about it at all. If you want freedom from corporations, use community owned distros.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

I consider it dead and am thankful that I don't use it.

load more comments
view more: next ›