this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2024
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I don't know what was wrong with Joe Biden. It's hard to imagine that they ever would have asked for a debate if this was the way he is normally. We've seen him recently holding press conferences and giving speeches and he seemed to be fine. They said he had a cold so maybe he really was on drugs — Nyquil or Mucinex or something that made him seem so shaky and frail. Whatever it was, it was a terrible debate for him and if he does stay in the race (which is almost certain in my opinion) the campaign is going to have a lot of work to do to dig out of the hole that was dug last night. The media smells blood and they are circling like a bunch of starved piranhas.

. . . For some odd reason, moderator Jake Tapper told Trump in the beginning that he didn't need to answer the questions and that he could use the time however he wanted. Trump ran with that, essentially giving a rally speech whenever he had the floor and was unresponsive to the vast majority of the questions. He made faces and insulted Biden to his face, at one point calling him a criminal and a Manchurian candidate. If anyone had said 10 years ago that this would happen at a presidential debate they would have been laughed out of the room. 

After the debate when most of the country had turned off cable news or gone to bed, CNN aired its fact check. And it's a doozy:

It sure would have been good if even some of that epic litany of lies could have been checked while people were still watching. The decision to have the moderators sit like a couple of potted plants woodenly asking questions about child care while Trump responded with irrelevant lies was inexplicable. Why did they even bother to ask questions at all? They could have just run the timer and let the candidates talk for two minutes each about anything they wanted. It probably would have been more enlightening.

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[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 101 points 3 months ago (12 children)

It's amazing to me that "he sounds feeble" is worse than "everything he said wasn't true."

[–] Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 40 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Problem is, the lower information voters don’t know that Trump is lying, and Biden couldn’t point that out in a clear and concise way. He was soft and rambling and wasn’t campaigning competently on that stage.

He needed to make the case against Trump. Which isn’t hard.

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[–] MimicJar@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago (1 children)

We know Trump is a liar.

Biden had to prove he wasn't feeble... and he failed at that.

Voting for Biden and his administration is still 100% the correct decision, but that debate isn't going to convince any swing voters. If you want to use the incumbency advantage you need to convince folks you can stay the course for the next 4 years.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

WE know, and that’s why the debate wasn’t for us. And it was a bad idea from the start - Trump does not deserve to be in a debate. Not that there’s any debating going on.

It was always going to support the ticket that thrives on chaos and idiocy. Always.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 20 points 3 months ago

Truth doesn't really matter in a presidential debate, it's not actually a debate. It's all about appearing superior than your opponent.

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

David Tennant in Doctor Who

Don't you think he looks tired?

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

I always kind of hated that bit, because it seemed so unrealistic. And here we are.

Life imitates art.

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[–] Montagge@lemmy.zip 68 points 3 months ago

CNN is essentially owned by John Malone now. It's just Fox News lite.

[–] warm@kbin.earth 54 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Are all American "debates" like this? The moderators just let them rattle off lies and skip the questions without challenging them?

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 40 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

Nope.

Up till this year a non partisan committee handled the debates and lent it an air of impartially and at least tried to hold candidates to the questions.

Both parties decided to boycott those debates, and set up their own with CNN as the host.

I've been bitching about it for months now and everyone's been telling me it'll be fine...

Edit:

2020 debates

https://youtu.be/pjW6WKpSCeQ?si=kwPHhz6XQd4EcVN-&t=1780

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 49 points 3 months ago

Hard disagree. This wasn't unusual. Presidential debates are notorious for moderators being ineffectual and unwilling to challenge lies.

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 29 points 3 months ago (5 children)

I've never seen a debate where the moderators did a fact check. You'll see candidates call each other out sometimes, but moderators don't actually moderate. Timing answers to be ridiculously short so nothing of substance can be said is also a perennial feature.

[–] JDPoZ@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Oh man… in all my years I have only seen one… (and it was this year!)… but it was not a presidential one… it was an AMAZING Republican primary debate in Colorado.

I WISH they got these guys to be the moderators. Would have fucking bashed Trump.

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[–] bobburger@fedia.io 25 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Pretty much every Trump debate has been like this. This one was actually an improvement from 2020 and 2016 because his microphone was turned off so he wasn't able to just yell over the other person and constantly interrupt.

[–] simplejack@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I don’t know if this is an improvement. As many feared, the muted mic saved Trump from himself. I’m sure his staff was actually pretty excited about that rule.

It would prevent him from doing what he did last time, which polled terribly.

[–] bobburger@fedia.io 3 points 3 months ago

That's very true, I should of said "from a civility standpoint it's an improvement".

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 months ago

Yes. 90% of the time is almost always off topic. Sometimes a candidate spends a whole sentence saying something related, but that's as close to organized as it ever was.

Trump definitely does more personal attacks, but that's about it. I've seen a moderator make a correcting statement once.

[–] bquintb@midwest.social 5 points 3 months ago

They're getting much worse

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[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 48 points 3 months ago (4 children)

I’m voting for Biden so don’t give me shit about being a Leftist helping Trump win. But if he does win, remember that Dems had a million chances to run someone better and this is what they let happen. It’ll be their fault if we get more of the bad man.

[–] hypnoton@discuss.online 15 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The dems suspended the primaries in a number of states and more or less coronated Biden.

The Dems believe in democracy only when against the GOP but do not believe in democracy when deciding matters inside their party.

The "Democratic" Party my ass cheeks. Clowns and hypocrites.

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Agreed. The coordinated pullout to sabotage Bernie in 2020 was shameful. "Vote for us or you'll be sorry when the GOP takes over" is all they offer.

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[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 23 points 3 months ago (4 children)

I mean, the Biden camp didn't need to take this debate.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

I don't know the details for how far ahead all the rules were decided. I would have assumed months but clearly not.

A BIG news story yesterday was that republicans were angry that there would be live fact checking during the debate. So CNN got rid of that literally the afternoon of the debate. That makes a massive difference because it means that Biden now needed to actively refute the increasingly blatant lies in addition to getting his talking points across.

And the format always went against Biden. His stutter and aphasia do not mix well with short 3 minute responses. With proper debate prep and a focus on talking points, he is mostly good. We had a few moments but even when he was at his most feeble sounding he was fine. But once he had to respond to things like "you are a manchurian candidate" and "you are basically a Palestinian but a bad one"? Then it becomes "okay, call this prick the c-word. Now I need to also cite this fact that is part of my border security answer. And then I need to talk about... jesus christ are we actually talking about global warming right now?"

And that fucked Biden. Because that is not something a POTUS needs to be able to handle. If Kim Jong Un started talking like that during a meeting... we might literally invade North Korea. Almost all meaningful conversation between world leaders is basically heavily scripted speeches or closed door conversations where people acknowledge others are human.

But also? CNN didn't even follow their own format. They repeatedly unmuted candidates (mostly trump but a few times Biden) so they could get a juicy comeback in.

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Then it becomes “okay, call this prick the c-word. Now I need to also cite this fact that is part of my border security answer. And then I need to talk about… jesus christ are we actually talking about global warming right now?”

That would be an understandable reaction from the average person but the president should be a lot more capable than the average person. Even if this specific sort of thing isn't something he needs to be able to handle, he still needs to handle things a lot harder than this and his performance here isn't reassuring me that he can. Trump is so predictably rude that Biden should have been totally ready for it.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Nobody has, to my knowledge, ever faulted Biden in a crisis (... well, except the zionism and racism but those are carefully considered platforms and not knee jerk reactions). I know I get a stutter when I need to say a LOT of technical jargon in a row and others have the same issue. When your goal is to get shit done, rather than to clown on someone, people are a lot more able to understand what is being said and will ask for clarification where needed.

It does not matter. If I have trouble saying something then the person I am talking to can immediately key in on "foo?" and I can nod and move on.

It has absolutely zero bearing on leadership unless a bunch of terrorists have taken a building hostage and will kill one person every time Biden stutters while going through an actor's warm-up exercises. And if Biden hadn't gone up there sounding like he was dead this would not be an issue outside of the most chuddy of morons and useful idiots.

The problem is that he had all the same stutters and aphasias he has had for decades but ALSO sounded feeble.

People having the metric of "President sounds good when throwing schoolyard insults at people" is how we got less than half of the country voting for the orange fuckstick.

[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I mean. Sure I guess?

So it was unfair. Sure.

But Biden and his camp didn't need to agree to a debate. It was going to get them nothing. There was NOTHING to gain here and everything to lose.

And they lost.. everything .

It shows that the Biden team isn't capable of manging this election; it showed that Biden isn't capable of offering the rhetoric it takes to win.

The Presidential role is a communications job. If he can't do the communications part of this, he__cant__win.

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[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 21 points 3 months ago (2 children)

If Biden faced a serious primary, we'd have known he was like this months ago and had even more time to find a competent replacement.

But people said it was too late then.

They say it's too late now, but it still isn't.

It's too big of a risk to keep plowing ahead like we're headed to Country Kitchen Buffet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op7IMFlE5do

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

You overestimate the risk of this specific event. I do think the DNC and all Americans need a wakeup call before November and this may or may not be it, but the debate is forgettable in 1 week whereas the consequences of these Supreme Court decisions or going to be with us for years to come.

Democrats have other opportunities to energize their base, it's up to them to use these opportunities, and avoid letting Trump dominate every election conversation.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

You overestimate the risk of this specific event

This isn't a one off thing tho.

This is Biden. He's not going to magically change a bunch of policy positions to align with the Dem platform out of nowhere.

He's not going to magically start acting half his age on the campaign trail.

No malarkey, what you see is what you get.

[–] AshMan85@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Now it really is too late. It's Biden or Trump. Your either for democracy or fascism

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Now it really is too late.

The convention still hasn't happened.

The candidate still hasn't been named.

It's still not too late

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Despite what people on Lemmy are saying there was a primary. Votes were cast and delegates are obligated to vote accordingly at least on the first ballot. Short of Biden stepping down there is no avenue to replace him at the convention.

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[–] madcaesar@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

People need to chill the fuck out.

Do any of you remember the first debate between Kerry and W? W sounded and stammered like a compete moron, and it made no difference.

These debates are a waste of time and Biden should never have agreed to debate a traitor.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Yes, exactly. Only now we’ve punched ourself in the nads and have to walk it off when there should never have been this issue.

[–] reddig33@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

When have any of these debates in the past twenty years been “fair”? The democrats knew what they were getting into.

[–] simplejack@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

IMHO, complaining about the refs feels like grasping for straws.

Biden was rambling, incoherent, and unlike Trump, he couldn’t get on message. And the messaging against Trump ain’t complex. He wants fascism, he’s killing women, covid was a fucking disaster under him, he’s a felon, and he’s lying. Biden struggled to get the basics out in a clear and coherent way.

IMHO, this is NOT the time to keep on and carry on. This debate is early enough that he can still step down and we can have a contested convention. The alternative is fascism. Biden is going to lose this shit.

[–] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Why doesn't he just answer every question with:

"Yeah but this is the man who thought shooting up bleach and letting sunlight into your lungs would cure COVID and then said it on TV"

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[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Here’s the catch: we might expect that, or think that or want that, but “that” isn’t going to happen unless Biden wants that because the world of politics has its own laws just like every other discipline / industry.

I seriously doubt there’s any chance of it, but since we’re allotted this specific window to pretend we can choose such a thing, why not. I’d go for Bernie, or Warren, or Schiff, or a few others.

Sunday, ten years too late, they’ll send talking heads to the old-people political shows to vigorously support Biden, or the “new” messaging or whatever their mitigation strategy is. But for now, just today, sure let’s imagine.

[–] TransplantedSconie@lemm.ee 5 points 3 months ago

He was massively over coached.

The very first thing he needed to say was:

"This man is going to lie to you. He's going to lie the entire time, and probably the only thing he will say true is his name."

[–] taiyang@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Salon always has a bias, but I also can't help but think he was on Sudafed or something. I also have seen him at other things and he's generally less... raspy. Doesn't change that it was stupid to go on like that, though.

I fortunately skipped the debate and only watched highlights, though. I already hate "debates" as far as I remember since, at best, it's just fluffy sound bites and vague promises, and at worst, a series of unrefuted lies. This sounds like everything I hate about typical "debates" turned up to 11.

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[–] cabron_offsets@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Brandon fucked up. Bad. He played into all that bullshit the traitors have been planning. It was truly disheartening.

Look, I’m voting for him. I’ll vote for any D in hopes of stopping the republican traitor filth. But Brandon needs to fuck off. Someone needs to talk sense to him and have him recognize what is right and necessary for the country.

[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (17 children)

I guarantee you the subset of DNC operatives invested in keeping Biden is vastly larger than any advocating for someone else.

This is all media turd circus because we were stupid enough to stand in the same room with a demented orange rapist in order to, uh, “reach undecideds”.

Welp. We reached ‘em. Good job DNC. As per.

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[–] bquintb@midwest.social 3 points 3 months ago

Whoever decided that putting that old man on stage in front of a national audience was a good idea should be shot. I'm voting for Kamala Harris, via Biden.

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