this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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Work Reform

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Earlier in the pandemic many news and magazine organizations would proudly write about how working from home always actually can lead to over working and being too "productive". I am yet to collect some evidence on it but I think we remember a good amount about this.

Now after a bunch of companies want their remote workers back at the office, every one of those companies are being almost propaganda machines which do not cite sound scientific studies but cite each other and interviews with higher ups in top companies that "remote workers are less productive". This is further cementing the general public's opinion on this matter.

And research that shows the opposite is buried deep within any search results.

Have you noticed this? Please share what you have observed. I'm going paranoid about this.

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[–] ScrivenerX@lemm.ee 143 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It's because a huge amount of business is centered around made up things for going to work.

Things you need to work in an office: suits, dry cleaning for the suits, dress shoes, a car (because public transportation is woefully inadequate for this reason), gas for the car, maintenance for the car, lunch, daycare, a dog walker, you have less time so you are more likely to eat out for dinner, also more likely to hire maids, you are stuck in a commute and radio is awful, so a music subscription, maybe a new phone, and might have to go out for drinks with the coworkers on the way home.

Staying at home, and much of the country on highly limited income, taught us how much we spend on the "privilege" of work. Everyone is still shocked at the emotional and opportunity cost work had, we're just starting to realize that most of what it sold to us either isn't real or isn't needed.

If people don't go back to work a sea of businesses will fail.

[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 38 points 1 year ago (5 children)

You missed the most important thing. Real estate investments that aren't allowed to go down in value, which they would if offices became superfluous. Just imagine how many buildings would become "worthless"/could be used for something else.

[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, this is BY FAR the biggest reason. Pretty much all the rich people and most big companies have huge investment in portfolios that contain a lot of commercial office spaces. If we were all allowed to work from home those investments would plummet and all the rich people and big companies would take MASSIVE losses on those investments. Which is why all the media and even companies like Zoom are trying to pull a 180 on working from home.

[–] Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Zoom forcing employees back to offices still baffles me

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[–] BeHappy@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I love the "might HAVE to go out for drinks with the coworkers on the way home". This is my most dreaded fear.

Edit: and clothes/getting 'ready' (hair, makeup, underwear, etc.) is double time for women.

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[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 82 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I don't care if remote workers are less productive (although I've seen no evidence that they are).

You can't convince me that spending an hour every morning travelling to get to an office, in order to sit in front of the exact two screens I have at home, is a good use of my time, nor is spending an hour getting home again.

That's about 450 hours a year for me. 18 whole days. Those days are mine now, and you're not having them back.

[–] kogasa@programming.dev 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wish I had the same setup at work as at home. My home dev environment cost 5 times as much.

[–] RagingRobot@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah when I was originally told I could just work from home forever I invested in a giant monitor and all kinds of tools. Now they changed their mind and want me to go in to an Office with shared desks. No thanks

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[–] SigmarStern@discuss.tchncs.de 77 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have noticed that working remotely really opened up the job market for me. Instead of being limited to where public transportation can bring me within 45 minutes, I can work for any company within Europe from the comfort of my home office. It makes switching jobs so much easier and I am willing to tolerate much less shit before I quit. That degree of freedom might scare companies. They can't trap me anymore with the costs of uprooting my life for a better job.

[–] Professorozone@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've never worked from home, but it seems to me that even if everything else were kept equal, you just saved an hour and a half commute plus the cost of doing so, every day! When you add in the lower cost of food and healthier diet eating at home and a whole host of other advantages. It's a huge win! Congrats.

[–] uranibaba@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I worked from home for ~6 months full time, my experience was that I will never do it full time again. For me, it was waking up, watch the same four walls for 8 hours, eat dinner, sleep, repeat. Perhaps my office could have been better but because I was working with support and had to be available on the phone, I could not really leave my computer for an extended period of time (except for lunch break).

A lot of people make it out to be heaven, working from home. I really missed having people to talk to. I believe that it would have been a much better experience if I could have worked from home 0-5 days per week as I saw fit. Bad morning? Work from home. Waking up fresh? Go to work. I'm assuming that you can walk or bike to work. Few things are worse than being stuck in traffic or being on a crowed bus/train, or missing the bus with 1 min, having to wait 15 min for the next one, when with the bike I can leave whenever I want.

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[–] aaron_griffin@lemmy.world 68 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The negativity comes almost entirely from two sorts of people

  1. Rich property owners who are seeing their valuable office buildings plummet in value.
  2. People who socialize primarily with work-mates and don't have other groups

To 1, fuck 'em. To 2, eh, maybe find a hobby now that you don't have to commute 2 hours a day

[–] Misconduct@startrek.website 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)

One of my sups from my old job was recently complaining that people weren't required to come in more than two days a week and pushing to increase it because the office is lonely without them. She and people like her are the absolute worst. Main character syndrome doesn't even begin to describe them and I wish nothing but the worst for them in life tbh

[–] Sheltac@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

That’s not main character syndrome, that’s just sad.

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[–] MisterRoboto@lemmy.world 67 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's money in real estate. There's even more in commercial real estate. There's less money in commercial real estate that's vacant because people work from home.

[–] Deiv@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 year ago

It's not only real estate...cities give incentives to companies that meet a quota of in-office employees since it drives the local economy

[–] UnaSolaEstrellaLibre@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Corpo news outlets are spewing out bullshit PR hitpieces to protect their investments on real-estate offices. COVID lockdown got them with their pants down and now are fighting tooth and nail to pull them back up lmao

[–] Uranium3006@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago

if you pay attention, a lot of it's opinion articles from insufferable people

[–] rambaroo@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Yep, 100%. They're fucked too because smaller companies aren't shying away from remote work. They'll never kill it now. They reaped the fruit of their shitty investment strategies.

[–] circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Corpos actively trying to get people back to the office so middle management doesn't feel as useless.

Commutes are a detriment to the worker, but not to the company.

[–] jhulten@infosec.pub 5 points 1 year ago

You are forgetting the value of commercial real estate portfolios. If the buildings are empty and no one wants to use them, they drop in value.

https://www.newsweek.com/crash-worse-2008-crisis-predicted-commercial-real-estate-1792758

[–] tooting_lemmy@lemm.ee 33 points 1 year ago

I think allot of Banks have a ton of assets tied up in commercial real estate. This is the real reason they are pushing everyone to go back to work. A lot of powerful people will loss money if the commercial real estate market crashes.

[–] RedstoneValley@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd say it's not all black or white. In my industry (software) most of my friends and colleagues have strong opinions about staying remote. It's mostly along the lines of "either let me continue to work from home or find someone else". Also most of the headhunter messages I get on LinkedIn offer up to 100% remote jobs. Of course this is all anecdotal and depends heavily on the field of work. But maybe it's worth considering that you have the power to shape your own future. If you do not want to work in an office, you'll find something else. Don't let those corporations fool you.

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[–] DigitalTraveler42@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My whole job revolves around cloud computing platforms, why do I need to be in an office? Yet it's looking like I'm going to be forced to make the choice of returning to an office I've never been to, or holding out until I find a new remote gig, while hurting my family financially.

The stupidest thing about the whole return to work things is that I've seen a lot of jobs and people who were remote prior to COVID are also being forced back into the office as well, creating financial hardships for those people. This is all just a shadow layoff, just a means to trimming the "fat", and I'm betting they're going to overcorrect and become even harsher with anyone that wants to not be in the office constantly.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago

At my last job my entire team was spread across the country. So when they started making me go back into the office I would have to drive an hour to get to work, just so I could sit at a desk alone and telecommute with my teammates. It was basically a huge waste of time and money for me. So I found a new job and quit. They begged me to stay after I gave notice, despite the fact that I told them ahead of time that I was going to leave if they insisted I go to the office. I guess they thought I was bluffing. They agreed to let me stay WFH after I gave notice and I just laughed.

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[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 22 points 1 year ago

You're not crazy.

Fact is, at the beginning, remote work was a requirement for companies to keep operating (aka, printing money for the execs and shareholders), so it was freely discussed as a positive thing.

Now that shareholders and execs can require RTO, the narrative is reversed. If you look at most of the articles surrounding WFH "not working" there's a very high chance that the motivation for such statements revolves around what management says about WFH, with no actual data to corroborate the message.

If you do your own research, a lot of what was true for WFH at the start of the pandemic is still true. The numbers and studies show that on the whole in the majority of circumstances, WFH increases productivity and makes workers happier overall. There are a few exceptions to this, I'm sure of that, and for each person, WFH or in office should be a personal choice, but it's not. You should be allowed to work where you feel most productive and happy. As long as it doesn't negatively impact your output, then it shouldn't matter, but to execs, it does matter.

IMO, the motivation for forced RTO is twofold: first, control. The company you work for wants to exert control over you, so you have to do something that maybe you're not a big fan of doing, simply because they say so. Additionally, they have more control over your day to day actions while you're at the office. When you get to converse with others, monitoring how much time you're spending away from your desk, the ability to walk up to you and grill you for any reason (or no reason). The second, is justifying office expenses. Either to be able to write it off, or pay their real estate owning buddies so those people can get money that could otherwise go to, IDK, wages (lol, it wouldn't, but you know), and by having the vast majority of their workforce in house all the time, they can keep that going.

I'm sure there's more to it, but that's my impression. Fact is, very few companies are allowing RTO to be just an option. Everything is either part-in-office (aka hybrid), or forced full time RTO. Full remote positions are evaporating.

[–] Vlyn@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That easy, beginning of the pandemic: Companies panic that all their employees would call in sick. Or some even die (not that they'd care, but a lot of companies have a bus factor of one). So remote work gets tolerated or praised, everything works great.

Now the pandemic is "over", it's safe to go back into the office. Companies have massive real estate costs, so they want to put their employees back into the office. Besides middle managers being afraid of their jobs as they seem to have become useless if they can't look over your shoulder and micromanage you.

It's never about facts, it's always what the companies and managers want in the moment.

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[–] Boozilla@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago

It's about money and control. Money invested in and harvested from owning commercial properties. Control from making employees do things they don't want to, just to beat them down and "keep them in line". A lot of bosses exercise power for its own sake, unfortunately.

I have empathy for folks who want to collaborate, and/or be mentored, and/or socialize at work. I no longer want or need those things from my job, but....I came up that way so it would be hypocritical of me to say that others shouldn't want them.

On the other hand, cars are destroying everything and commuting in 2023 (if you don't truly need to) is just dumb. Progress always comes with some amount of pain and adjustment.

[–] new_acct_who_dis@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

People working from home aren't consuming much anymore.

Of course there's commercial property leases and micromanaging bosses, but I think the uptick in this messaging is in response to people spending less money.

Less money on cars, gas, clothes, eating out, fancy coffee, hair/nails, dry cleaning, kid/animal care, gym (?), and probably so much more that I'm not thinking of.

And when we do spend money on those things, they're lasting longer and we're getting more discerning. When I do consider spending money on eating out, I'll def choose going hungry over getting something lower quality.

[–] ClockNimble@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Working from home is legitimately amazing. My bud oes not need to sit at your desk with your lame chair and keyboard. He has a much faster pc at home with the big clicky-clackies. Ten hour work day? He will bring that shizz down to 6-8 with the same productivity and can play games on the side.

I get that it doesn't work for everyone, especially those with task management issues, but out of the 40 people I know, 2 do better in an office.

[–] Bookmeat@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

This is because they want you to continue being serfs. The pandemic put the brakes on that, but now it's it back to serfdom full steam ahead.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Businesses wanted to seem like they cared about people's health and safety at the beginning of the pandemic, now commercial property values are tanking and that means the ruling class loses a vector from which they can siphon wealth away from the working class.

[–] Ddubz@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In my observation it has been industry and sector dependent.

Corporate tech and finance are calling for remote work to end. Most of the articles I see where going back to the office is touted are all "silicon valley" type companies and finance/investment firms writing opinion peices.

PR, marketing, and news media, comms fields - which I am in - are doing the opposite. I work in digital media with government clients and my office just had a building contractor come in and walled off 2/3 of our empty cube space that was full pre-pandemic but is now vacant because all those employees remained remote. The positions in that area of the office were mostly copy editors, graphic design, and technical writers. The building owner turned that area into a new office but hasn't rented it to anyone new yet.

Many of my colleagues are active duty military and government civilians. They all telework as much as 3-4 days a week currently. All of their jobs are administrative in nature and almost all of the military people are officers.

It is important to note that the military has loosely instructed liberal telework at unit level discretion because of record low retention rates. I've been working in/for government for a long time and even before 2020, federal contractors and DoD civilians have usually had telework of some kind provided what they did was something that could be taken home.

When I worked in DC in the mid-00s it was common to see offices engage rotating flex schedules because of the insane traffic and hours long commutes in the DMV corridor.

But, I suppose it's all anecdotal. Where you live and what you do for work are going to impact reality more than anything. Watching the MSM speculate and reading nonsense opinion articles in the Atlantic or Times aren't going to give you any real information.

All I can say for sure is my office has fully remote and hybrid only. We are guaranteed two days WFH a week but all salaried employees have optional flex schedules and can work non-concurrent hours as long as deadlines are being met. But again, I work for a massive international fed contractor that does largely administrative and PR consulting. So all things that have a history of WFH schedules already.

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[–] SmoothIsFast@citizensgaming.com 13 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It's called all the corporate leases on buildings in major cities. Wall Street bought up all the bonds surrounding those debts and with nobody needing to continue work in cities, those corporate real estate prices are about to crash really badly if they can't bring people back to cities. That means their balance sheets go out of wack and certain positions become untenable to maintain, not to mention they stand to loose a shit load of money. Hence everything saying its bad now, they need people to move back or their investments fall. It's not about productivity, emotional benefits, collaboration, but about wealth for the elites.

[–] lackthought@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

poor management all around, grasping at short term solutions because they can't see past the next quarterly financial reports

our company actually closed several offices due to low in-person turnout after the pandemic started to ease up, and they said they would just sub-lease out the buildings to recuperate money

those of us in the office cities are now fully remote

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[–] ninbreaker@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

Real estate tycoons have a huge microphone

[–] nightscout@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Yes, I have observed this and it is very frustrating. In many cases, these "articles" are opinion pieces being circulated by those with a financial interest in commercial real estate (or someone carrying the water of someone who has such an interest). Those who have any sort of financial interest in commercial real estate are going to be against remote work for obvious reasons.

Cities and real estate moguls arguing that people have to engage in an absolutely fruitless, draining, exhausting, expensive commute to keep a handful of people rich. They want to punish you to keep some elite people rich.

What needs to happen is workers need to fight back as much as possible. If your job can be done remotely, make it a priority to work for a company that allows you to do your job remotely. There's NOTHING about my job that requires me to go into an office. I have worked successfully at home for many years and if my organization required me to come in, I would do everything I could to leave and find something else that allowed me to telework. If you're looking for a job and have the luxury of being a little bit choosy, let recruiters know you will ONLY consider remote options.

Anecdotally, I think these opinion pieces are way overblown. My spouse was recently contacted by a recruiter about a job. The job was not remote and my spouse told the recruiter they would only consider remote-only options. The recruiter sighed and said, "That is what I keep getting told."

[–] Blamemeta@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

The news is propaganda. Welcome to the club.

[–] randon31415@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Productivity was never the point of work. Increases in productivity thus was never a boon to those in charge.

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[–] Stinkywinks@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Middle management wants to have a reason to exist. They want people driving to work spending money on the way there and back. Landlords care about their giant office buildings not being rented that should instead just be replaced with affordable housing.

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[–] Strayce@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A lot of these companies are locked in to 5,10 or 20 year leases. If they were sensible they'd just eat the loss and take the extra productivity and happier staff, but that's not how the corporate hivemind works. They're paying rent so they have to justify it by having bums on seats, or they're bleeding money for what looks like no reason.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Most of them get tax breaks from the city, but only if they maintain a minimum occupancy. So they've lost their tax breaks and they want them back. As always, it comes down to money.

[–] Marcy_Stella@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

It's simple, during the pandemic they couldn't have workers come in but they couldn't have just no work force so they pushed for work from home and made it seem like a big positive to keep money flowing into their pockets. Now that they can have people come into the office they need to justify their leases and justify their middle management oversight so they need people coming back to the offices. It's not about whats convent or comfortable for the workers, it's what can make them the most money and justify expenses as to not spook investors. If the company could cancel even half of their leases they would and have most everyone work from home and maybe even cut back on middle management. However they got 20-30 year leases to save money(in month to month payments) and it'd be really expensive to exit the deal sooooo justifying the lease is more important.

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