this post was submitted on 12 Jan 2025
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making derogatory comments about people's penises is not feminist
The point isn't that someone has a tiny dick. The point is that someone is trying to overcompensate their toxic masculinity to account for it. Its like when someone speeds in a huge car in the middle of the city centre.
Well fair, but using toxic stereotypes, even ironically, doesn't seem to be the way to dismantle that stereotype. It's like if a woman made fun of a man for liking pegging, and I call her a whore. No one should value a person based on their genitals or how many people they sleep with.
Well that's me sold on picking the bear
Yes, but that didn't happen here.
Perhaps he's objecting to having the alleged hand gesture referred to as feminist. A bit of a quibble, but not completely baseless.
Then again it may not be fair to claim that whenever feminists do hurtful things in the name of feminism, that it's not real feminism. Feminism can do bad things too. Any philosophy can.
I feel like we're kind of in the weeds here so I'm going to state my position openly. I'm a man who has been accused of having a small penis many times in life. I say this to communicate that I understand what it's like to be accused of having a small penis and I get it.
Any man who thinks that a pinching motion is unquestionably making fun of them for having a small penis with ~~our~~ out confirmation, needs to get help. That motion is done all the time by all genders for any particular reason. Any man who causes harm because someone said he has a small penis also needs help. If you need help and you don't get help and continue to behave in antisocial manner, then you deserve to be made fun of. At a certain point, antisocial behavior needs to be handled.
If a large enough group of men are being antisocial because of a pinching motion. I think it's fine for feminists to make the pinching motion intentionally to cause insult. For women to have to just deal with the antisocial behavior and ignore it is not acceptable.
My opinions would be the same if the genders would be reversed, so I feel like I've got a pretty solid argument here.
"Get help" is not so simple, and is a patronizing, individualist thing to say to people who are having trauma responses to bodyshaming. People should set their own personal boundaries with antisocial people, and society at large should address the root cause by creating systems that disincentivize bodyshaming.
And I think it's fine for men to then bodyshame women in turn. But -- oh wait -- making excuses for bodyshaming doesn't actually improve anything. It just increases tension and resentment.
There are more choices than just these two.
I agree that it isn't always simple to do. I didn't mean it in a patronizing way, I meant it in a matter of fact way. Do you not suggest people who are having trauma responses to every hand gesture that mimics a pinch? Clearly they need to get help or they are going to be constantly in a trauma response their entire life by people who mean them no offense. It's a pretty sad way to live, so much potential wasted.
I have gotten help and it has improved my situation drastically. I would suggest anyone give it a try.
I think if you make the claim that men have human limitations and can't help but to retaliate or instigate, you need to hold that claim for women as well. We are all humans just doing our best. This whole thing has been made super public and both sides have been hurt. So the fallout is unavoidable here. Why should women be expected to hold the civility line when men are having trauma responses to perceived body shaming?
It's been a bit since I have looked into the situation but last time I check several artists are out of a job and business are scared because of a pinch gesture. The retaliation has been feminists who actually mean to body shame. Has there been anything else? Have any body shamed men lost money, jobs, or their lively hood?
All this to say, from where I am standing the traumatized men are still a head here.
I never implied there were only two choices. There are many options. I think picking the "returning fire" option is reasonable.
But maybe I am missing a better option. If you have a suggestion, please make it.
I do agree that it's good for them to get help if they can, so long as there is room for them having reasons not to get help; and room for them to try other approaches to getting help (such as hanging around people who treat them well); and room for them to get help but not improve.
I agree, and I do hold that claim for women. Where I draw a hard line is creating cultural excuses and encouragement for retaliation and instigation, which I believe you have done by saying it's fine for women to intentionally instigate men to cause insult. That is no longer treating their reactions as unfortunate trauma responses; it is actively justifying and supporting their actions.
I don't expect women to be civil, but also don't think society should excuse their incivility. The same is true of men.
I'm not living their lives, and am not aware of all the media around it, so I can't say for sure. What I can say for sure is that I strongly oppose politics that try to excuse harming groups just because they're less harmed than other groups. It worsens tension and just makes society shittier for everyone involved.
I think we should not excuse or encourage people intentionally harming other people. If they harm other people inevitably due to their trauma, then that is regrettable but unavoidable. Rather, we should focus on creating uplifting spaces where people of all genders are brought together across divides to focus on common goals and interests. This helps humanize the other and reduce social tension.
What? Why should there be reasons for that? They are traumatized and being antisocial like sending death threats.
Yes, this how most therapy is. Once you are traumatized, that is it. You get to go though life traumatized. Therapy will help by reducing negative reactions, giving tools to deal with negative reactions in a way that doesn't harm yourself or others. You have to do the work. You still have to deal with the consequences of your actions before and after therapy. There is no time limit except for the longer you do antisocial stuff, the longer you and others will need to deal with the consequences.
By "fine" I meant it is reasonable to do giving the circumstances.
These are fine statements, but historically doing nothing often make these problems worse. If you looks at the civil rights in the US, for example. If black people didn't start causing a scene, they wouldn't have made any progress. The long term outcomes of not doing anything in response to antisocial behavior is that you get walked over.
If the professionals agree, sure, but this should be a government project. You don't want traumatized men, women, or feminists building such a system, otherwise it will probably not turn out well.
Yes, this was my point, the idea of a gesture for someone's penis size is not feminist, it is derogatory/toxic masculinity.
That is called a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
It is a feminist action because a large swathe of South Korean feminists openly adopted it as a shibboleth, whether it is consistent with the principles of your preferred brand of feminism is irrelevant.
It'd be the same as saying protesting in front of abortion clinics in the US isn't Christian (except Christianity has explicit rules so the comparison isn't 1:1) when most if not all protesters would cite their religion as their motivation.
I guess its feminist in the sense that a south korean feminist community uses it, but it's not consistent with the ideology of feminism. It's like saying blocking wind turbine construction and increasing prison sentences are liberal because the Swedish Liberal party does those things.
If we consider the struggle for feminism in the US/Europe to be the same as the South Korean struggle for feminism, then sure, we can say that it is a feminist hand-gesture. But the situation in both cultures are completely different, and I'm not sure if American/European feminists would like to be associated with the hand gesture.
I don't know, I guess in the context of a south korean article it makes sense, but I was just feeliing that it should be clearer that it is a South Korean gesture. It's honestly a moot point and we're debating over nothing.
But it was the way the characters hand was positioned! No commentary, just a picture in a trailer for a cutesy game
The response is ridiculous, but not surprising
Yeah, the response is absolutely unacceptable, I'm just commenting on the article using the term feminist incorrectly. Feminism is not about being derogatory against people with penises.
It is called misandry.
That's a bit of a loaded term though. I do agree that it promotes toxic male stereotypes, yes.