this post was submitted on 12 Jan 2025
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[–] deaf_fish@lemm.ee 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

“Get help” is not so simple, and is a patronizing, individualist thing to say to people who are having trauma responses to bodyshaming.

I agree that it isn't always simple to do. I didn't mean it in a patronizing way, I meant it in a matter of fact way. Do you not suggest people who are having trauma responses to every hand gesture that mimics a pinch? Clearly they need to get help or they are going to be constantly in a trauma response their entire life by people who mean them no offense. It's a pretty sad way to live, so much potential wasted.

I have gotten help and it has improved my situation drastically. I would suggest anyone give it a try.

And I think it’s fine for men to then bodyshame women in turn. But – oh wait – making excuses for bodyshaming doesn’t actually improve anything. It just increases tension and resentment.

I think if you make the claim that men have human limitations and can't help but to retaliate or instigate, you need to hold that claim for women as well. We are all humans just doing our best. This whole thing has been made super public and both sides have been hurt. So the fallout is unavoidable here. Why should women be expected to hold the civility line when men are having trauma responses to perceived body shaming?

It's been a bit since I have looked into the situation but last time I check several artists are out of a job and business are scared because of a pinch gesture. The retaliation has been feminists who actually mean to body shame. Has there been anything else? Have any body shamed men lost money, jobs, or their lively hood?

All this to say, from where I am standing the traumatized men are still a head here.

There are more choices than just these two.

I never implied there were only two choices. There are many options. I think picking the "returning fire" option is reasonable.

But maybe I am missing a better option. If you have a suggestion, please make it.

[–] nyamlae@lemmy.world 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Do you not suggest people who are having trauma responses to every hand gesture that mimics a pinch?

I do agree that it's good for them to get help if they can, so long as there is room for them having reasons not to get help; and room for them to try other approaches to getting help (such as hanging around people who treat them well); and room for them to get help but not improve.

I think if you make the claim that men have human limitations and can't help but to retaliate or instigate, you need to hold that claim for women as well.

I agree, and I do hold that claim for women. Where I draw a hard line is creating cultural excuses and encouragement for retaliation and instigation, which I believe you have done by saying it's fine for women to intentionally instigate men to cause insult. That is no longer treating their reactions as unfortunate trauma responses; it is actively justifying and supporting their actions.

I don't expect women to be civil, but also don't think society should excuse their incivility. The same is true of men.

All this to say, from where I am standing the traumatized men are still a head here.

I'm not living their lives, and am not aware of all the media around it, so I can't say for sure. What I can say for sure is that I strongly oppose politics that try to excuse harming groups just because they're less harmed than other groups. It worsens tension and just makes society shittier for everyone involved.

But maybe I am missing a better option. If you have a suggestion, please make it.

I think we should not excuse or encourage people intentionally harming other people. If they harm other people inevitably due to their trauma, then that is regrettable but unavoidable. Rather, we should focus on creating uplifting spaces where people of all genders are brought together across divides to focus on common goals and interests. This helps humanize the other and reduce social tension.

[–] deaf_fish@lemm.ee 1 points 3 hours ago

there is room for them having reasons not to get help

What? Why should there be reasons for that? They are traumatized and being antisocial like sending death threats.

and room for them to get help but not improve.

Yes, this how most therapy is. Once you are traumatized, that is it. You get to go though life traumatized. Therapy will help by reducing negative reactions, giving tools to deal with negative reactions in a way that doesn't harm yourself or others. You have to do the work. You still have to deal with the consequences of your actions before and after therapy. There is no time limit except for the longer you do antisocial stuff, the longer you and others will need to deal with the consequences.

Where I draw a hard line is creating cultural excuses and encouragement for retaliation and instigation, which I believe you have done by saying it’s fine for women to intentionally instigate men to cause insult.

By "fine" I meant it is reasonable to do giving the circumstances.

What I can say for sure is that I strongly oppose politics that try to excuse harming groups just because they’re less harmed than other groups.

I think we should not excuse or encourage people intentionally harming other people.

These are fine statements, but historically doing nothing often make these problems worse. If you looks at the civil rights in the US, for example. If black people didn't start causing a scene, they wouldn't have made any progress. The long term outcomes of not doing anything in response to antisocial behavior is that you get walked over.

Rather, we should focus on creating uplifting spaces where people of all genders are brought together across divides to focus on common goals and interests. This helps humanize the other and reduce social tension.

If the professionals agree, sure, but this should be a government project. You don't want traumatized men, women, or feminists building such a system, otherwise it will probably not turn out well.