this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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How the U.S. government came to rely on the tech billionaire—and is now struggling to rein him in.

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[–] uphillbothways@kbin.social 82 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

And SpaceX as a whole. It's entirely government funded anyway. Should have kept that money in NASA where it belonged. Fortunately, there's an easy way to put it all right back.

(Also, archive link of top article here: https://archive.is/H6rzo )

[–] citycat@lemm.ee 62 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

not entirely government funded, but enough that, if they withdraw funding, it would totally collapse.

the entire argument that “private companies do it cheaper” is mostly because they cut corners, skirt regulations, and screw over employees to do business on the cheap. then, we find out there may be massive security breaches like, oh, chatting with Putin and god knows who else...

[–] keeb420@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

Part of the problem is nasa seems to be very risk adverse now. Letting private companies take the risk is one way to get around that. I'm just glad we don't have to depend on russia to get to space or the iss.

[–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don't forget potentially underpay people. I don't believe that's happening for SpaceX specifically, but it does for many other competitors to government jobs. Government jobs aren't necessarily super high pay, but they usually have solid pay with excellent benefits, pension, and work/life balance.

So when jobs move from the public to private sector, it often comes at the cost of employees. And in some extreme cases, employees are paid so little that they have to rely on government benefits to get by, which is extremely dumb. That's subsidizing the private sector.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

From what I've heard it's true. If you have a job offer from NASA and one from SpaceX, the NASA one is better.

[–] photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We would've never gotten propulsive landing so quickly purely through NASA. See how far behind the SLS was. And SpaceX's funding comes mostly from private equity.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Bullshit.

The reason is NASA's budget kept getting slashed despite NASA making a profit since it's inception.

We gave them less money so progress would be slow and salaries wouldn't be competitive and then it could be privatized like so many sectors before it.

Because the wealthy can't buy stock in NASA.

[–] Kes@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago

NASA's budget isn't the only reason SpaceX has been able to innovate faster. NASA is incredibly risk averse, as their failures reflect onto the US government and by extension their budget. Even when safety isn't important such as with unmanned rockets, NASA doesn't want news headlines blasting them for their rocket's tendencies to blow up. SpaceX, by being a private company, is free to take risks and have rockets explode (if they're unmanned that is) without much repercussions as they're a private company, not the US government. They've had 7 unmanned rockets explode and several more reusable lander's fail in their course to develop cheaper, reusable rockets, which had NASA done themselves would have been a national embarrassment, but because it was a private company they were free to take those risks to learn from their mistakes

[–] photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

In the absence of government funding, what's the alternative to private companies?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The whole point is that there shouldn't be an absence. The absence is there because of the private corporations. This is another insidious tendril of capitalism.

I agree wholeheartedly. Public money is being funneled into the MIC, of which SpaceX is now an integral part. If that same money or even a significant fraction had been instead alotted to NASA since the moon landings, we'd have bases on Titan already.

However, I want to see us touch the stars. And right now, it's pretty much only SpaceX that has the drive and capital to get there.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's an odd question because government programs aren't and shouldn't be in areas to make a profit, aka act like a private company. They need to act where private sector can't, won't, or can't do it well and when there is an important stake. Eg roads, schools, healthcare, police, firefighters, etc. This is why people are telling you it's unlikely SpaceX would be around without government contracts and funding.

[–] Comment105@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

NASA was never gonna figure out reusable rockets.

[–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Pretty sure they did ages ago, that was kinda the point of the space shuttel program. And thats just the most notable attempt, the DC-X is another example. Reusable rockets are just kinda inefficient for a lot of shit.

[–] Intralexical@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

The DC-X/Delta Clipper was really cool, but the Space Shuttle was a design-by-committee safety and maintenance disaster. VentureStar didn't go much better either, though that was mostly Lockheed.

NASA's had the tech, the expertise, and the will for a while, but the political process was never going to give them permission to do anything more than slow-moving rehashes and incremental evolutions of old technology.

[–] Comment105@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Are you suggesting Falcon 9 is an inefficient rocket?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_launch_systems

https://i.imgur.com/3wwQHqK.png

I mean please, forgive my imperfect analogy and call Edison an asshole, but for the love of all that is good don't embarrass yourself by claiming electricity is useless.

[–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Reread what I typed, reusablle rockets have their place but they can become rather inefficient or even outright wasteful depending on the circumstances. Remember it takes about a lot of energy to land something coming down from orbit, that means more fuel, more fuel means more weight. And sometimes it better to put that fuel and weight into putting more shit into orbit.

[–] Intralexical@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Remember it takes about a lot of energy to land something coming down from orbit, that means more fuel, more fuel means more weight. And sometimes it better to put that fuel and weight into putting more shit into orbit.

…That sounds like bull, and quick back-of-the-envelope arithmetic shows there's probably no way it's true in the general sense.

Falcon 9 LEO payload, expended: 22.8t
Payload, recovered: 17.4t
Structural material: Various aero-grade aluminium alloys.
First stage dry mass: 25.6t
Propellant mass (LOX+RP-1): 395.7t
Second stage dry mass: 3.9t
Propellant mass: 92.67t

CO₂ emissions to produce aluminium: 2t·CO₂/t·Al to 20+t·CO₂/t·Al
(Depending on whether fossil fuels are used— Al is very energy-intensive. MINIMUM. Does not include mining, alumina, alloying, machining, etc.)

CO₂ emissions to burn LOX+RP-1: ~0.8t·CO₂/t·Fuel

The launch kinematics shouldn't change too much otherwise, so assume the difference in payload approximately correlates to the fuel amount that must be saved— Oversimplifying and overly linear, I know. (I'm not breaking out Tsiolkovsky for this. You do it, if you want.):

(25.6t * (2t/t)) / ((22.8t - 17.4t) * (0.8t/t))

In even the most conservative scenario, the carbon footprint of the extra fuel to land a Falcon 9 will be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 12X less than even just the raw material costs to replace the aluminium in it.

If we assume a more typical US aluminium production process for a US company, resulting in 11t·CO₂/t·A instead of 2t·CO₂/t·A:

(25.6t * (11t/t)) / ((22.8t - 17.4t) * (0.8t/t))

…Then we're looking at the carbon footprint of the fuel to reuse a rocket being 65X lower the carbon footprint of replacing it. This is still not even counting either the actual mining, preprocessing, and alloying of the aluminium ore nor the machining nor the rocket structure, so the real number will be even higher.

…In fact, it looks like nearly half of all the carbon emissions from a rocket launch are likely to come from just manufacturing the rocket, not even the fuel it burns. I'm honestly pretty surprised by this too; You'd think, and I've always personally assumed, that the big tank of carbon-based fuel and not the thin sheet of metal around it would release the most CO₂, but apparently not.

((25.6t + 3.9t) * (11t/t)) / ((395.7t + 92.67t) * (0.8t/t))

I guess it makes sense when you remember that GHG costs for other types of vehicles are usually amortized over the useful lifespan of the vehicle in question.

Reusable rockets are just kinda inefficient for a lot of shit.

Remember it takes about a lot of energy to land something coming down from orbit,

This entire premise is somewhere between false and dishonest or misinformed. It costs basically zero energy to land something coming down from orbit, compared to what you've already spent to send it up there in the first place, because all you have to do is lower your periapsis into the atmosphere and then fire a quick thrust burst for a couple seconds to land at the end once air drag has done all the hard work of bringing you down from hypersonic to subsonic terminal velocity. The Saturn V had to be millions of tonnes to get to the Moon, but the command module and capsule to get back was kinematically basically one step above an inert rock with a couple of whoopee cushions strapped to the back.

Call out the shitty labour practices, security risks, and deeply problematic political and economic injustices. But don't try to lie about physics.

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 year ago

A Lofstrom loop or a skyhook would be cheaper and safer, honestly

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Von Braun came up with the concept for a reusable rocket in the 50s. Not being able to figure it out was not the issue.

[–] Comment105@lemm.ee -4 points 1 year ago

You strike me as an academic that struggles to appreciate the value of applied physics and engineering.