What do you mean by "militant and rude?"
this post was submitted on 28 Dec 2024
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Not accepting that people need time to adjust and maybe go vegan in smaller steps. There is even hostility towards people who look for fake meat or dare to say they like the taste of meat even though they still want to avoid eating it. Just generally being assholes and gatekeepers.
That's been my experience too. I'm trying to eat less meat and find alternatives that work for me, but it apparently has to be all or fuck you for some. I know it's not everyone, but somehow they seem the loudest and it's not very helpful.
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This is a natural consequence of always being attacked by non-vegans, patience is thin and communities are maintained by the ones who remain. Unlike, say, gaming, veganism is constantly attacked, so it's harder for them to be more inclusive than a gaming community would be.
Seems a bit like a vicious circle to me. Hate against vegans leading to a hateful reaction, leading to vegans being perceived as assholes, leading to more hate against vegans etc. I guess it's understandable, but it also seems counterproductive for spreading veganism.
Anecdotally, as a vegetarian I can say that the most vicious attacks against my lifestyle were not by meat eaters but some vegans (online-vegans to be precise, all I've met IRL were nice people). That's despite me certainly never attacking veganism, I even think it's morally superior to vegetarianism.
It's certainly a contradiction, understanding the true nature of the problem is the first step to fixing it.
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G*mers are actually the most oppressed minority
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Previously I found that they were staunchly anti-anything but vegan and carried over said rudeness from the reddit communities. As a vegan myself it was a big turn off. I asked about this and they banned me. Reminiscent of lemmygrad on anything but their specific MLM ideology.
Lemmygrad aren't MLM, they are ML with Dengist sympathies and are anti-Gonzaloist, but regardless most Vegans on the fediverse are Vegan because of strict ethical and moral reasons and believe in full animal liberation. It's hard to take a half-way stance on that matter with that frame of mind, which can manifest itself in "rudeness." Additionally, most Vegans experience tons of hostility, making them more defensive by default.
That makes sense about lemmygrad's odd takes.
As a vegan I fully get that, but most vegan communities are hostile at best.
I wouldn't say Lemmygrad has odd takes for being MLs, they are extremely consistent with most organized ML parties worldwide. I'd need to know what you mean by "odd," the fact that they have an ML line or their interpretation of ML, the latter of which is very standard from what I have seen.
Back to Veganism, I haven't experienced hostility, and I think it's generally going to be that way unless you bash veganism or defend antiveganism or non-veganism, hence the point of a vegan community. Just my 2 cents.
That's good to know, thanks for sharing! I appreciate your explanations.
IDK, I disagree. I've experienced it both on reddit and here. Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons, I don't think enforces a specific ideology or you can't discuss is fair to newbies or anyone is doesn't 100% agree.
Regardless, I will look for another not lemmy.world one.
Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons
A lot of people are vegan or vegetarian for the same reason. Plenty of groups within the movement have theory and a party line
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Gotcha. In my opinion, one must understand both viewpoints, that of the newcomer and that of the tired, long-ime vegan. Looking at problems from one side alone is anti-dialectical and results in false conclusions. There will be no perfect community for the new and the old, and communities are made and maintained by the old so it will lean in their favor regardless.
Good application of dialects but they can at least be nice⦠:/
You can be the change you want to see. If you find a community that is close to what you want, you can actively participate and offer suggestions to help "onboarding" of new vegans. I try to do the same with Marxism, even making an intro reading list that I frequently share (and keep linked on my profile), because I know other comrades are more tired and hostile as a consequence. I refuse to blame hostile reaction when existence itself is under siege regularly, be it veganism or Marxism, and would rather take on the proactive mantle myself.
Great advice! I think youβre definitely doing that as your replies today and yesterday are both enlightening and kind.
Thank you! π«‘
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I always wonder where people are going that this seems so common. I've been relatively low meat for a while, what's called half-vegetarian/flexatarian. My experience is that most vegans/vegetarians just want to share their favorite recipe.
In my experience, this usually comes from people defending half-measures, which is fundamentally wrong from the vegan point of view, and thus the claws come out. If you aren't going against the "correct" stance, vegans are very chill, as someone who is low meat as well I am working on eradicating that (which at this point is more of a social problem than individual).
I mean as a grumpy vegan it basically seems like hanging out with someone who's like "Look, we're reducing bombing hospitals but we still want to take the land" or something. It is a fundamental disconnect which still frames other living beings as things you can extend or revoke consideration from depending on how much you want what you get from killing them.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes. Would that world still be an unimaginably cruel and hideous Holocaust of suffering created for selfish reasons by beings who know better? Yes.
Okay, but if you live in a world where hospitals are being bombed continuously, and you can push for bombs to not be dropped on Mondays, why would you ever not want that? Sure, it still won't be the reality you want to live in, but it's a step in the right direction. And if you can get people comfortable with Mondays, then that creates a much easier platform to talk about, "look that wasn't so hard, why don't we also include Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, and keep going from there".
In my experience, the majority of people I interact with who aren't vegan feel like the going 0 to 60 on full veganism is way too difficult and intimidating, especially when all their friends and family still eat meat.
Like I empathize with the moral dilemma militant vegans find themselves in, but if the world doesn't match your ideals, is throwing a tantrum and vilifying people the best way to change hearts and minds?
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most people with values will be pretty stringent about them
not sure you're gonna find anything
Right now, nowhere on lemmy that I've found.
Mind you, it isn't every person, but all the vegan communities and instances are currently run by militants of some degree. The .world one is the least militant that I've run across.
They aren't all rude, but definitely have the kind of thinking that leads to rudeness eventually.
Which really sucks because there's plenty of really chill vegans on lemmy. But you can't talk to them in vegan spaces without it being a problem unless you're parroting the scripture of vegan to their satisfaction.
Being real, I kinda wish someone would start a decent relaxed community.
Wasn't .world the only one where an admin decided to go on a rampage?
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Not being useful to your question at all, but if you find or start a community, I'll join. I've been various stages of vegetarian and vegan over the last 6 years. Never felt like I needed to talk about my specific, contextual exceptions, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be well accepted among hardline vegans.
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I just want to say I love militant vegans, so long as militant means they are organized and actively creating the world they want to live in. if they are just preaching, I would not say they are militant, just evangelical.
and, to be clear, I'm neither. I just find militancy admirable.
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The entire "problem" with veganism is that almost anything which starts with such an inflexible moral imperative ends up becoming militant, specifically because that rigidity quickly becomes at odds with more practical and functional versions of the idea.
Like so many similar ethics, veganism doesn't really concern itself with creating a practical or actionable roadmap for how food supply chains can be iteratively modified towards the goal of reducing animal suffering. Militant moralists, in fact, tend to avoid such things specifically because they demand a framework of accountable progress. Demanding radical and unrealistic measures be taken, and then condemning those who express skepticism or hostility of this idea is much easier. Like a religion.
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There are a couple vegan specific instances that you could try searching for, I can't point them out for you right now. But in my experience at least, they seem to be pretty reasonable.
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Joined/subscribed, but not vegan. I enjoy cooking and have started adding some vegan dishes to the rotation to learn some new cooking techniques on foods that I'm not familiar with cooking, like soy. I enjoy the new challenge. Also, I feel like there are probably health benefits. I'm particularly interested in awhile food based cheese substitutions. I found a fantastic vegan queso dip with 3 ingredients. The other stuff is good, too, but not really on my mind.
You're exactly the type of person that I welcome that I believe other communities would be rude to! :) I eat soy daily based on my cuisine so I will try to share some recipes. Can you share the vegan queso dip in a post maybe? Sounds good!
I have a deep desire to resurrect the vegan struggle session every time I see people tone policing us on this website, but we live in 1984 and I know the mods would remove it smh-ing my head
I donβt need a struggle session for how I ethically eat. If you think not wanting people to be rude is tone policing then youβre probably not nice.
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The vegan community on lemmy.ml is technically larger, but I don't know if it's any less "militant and rude." (I put that in quotes because I have no personal experience with that community)
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