this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2024
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[–] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 22 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"What does Katana mean?"

"It means Japanese sword"

  • Samurai Cop
[–] Vivendi@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 day ago

Fucking legendary

[–] simple@lemm.ee 32 points 1 day ago (1 children)

While you were out there whacking your straight stick, I spent years studying the blade...

Katana snaps in half after first swing

[–] Egg_Egg@lemm.ee 16 points 1 day ago (5 children)

The whole "Japanese steel was really weak" thing is as much of a myth as the whole "katanas are super powerful superior weapons" thing.

They're all just swords, and don't make that much of a difference either way.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 12 points 1 day ago (9 children)

According to whom?

The reason why Japanese iron is inferior is because of the source of the iron itself, they utilized iron sand instead of rock ore. Rock ore can be made up to 90% ferrous material while the iron sand contains as little as 2%.

This means when you smelt your source material into blooms of iron and slag, the blooms made from sand iron were much smaller. Instead of utilizing a single bloom to make a sword, the Japanese had to work several blooms together. Which is much more labour intensive, and can lead to a lot of imperfections in the final product.

This is why katanas were made out of so little material, and had to be handled with care. They were much more fragile pieces than similar swords made in Korea and China at the time.

Plus, the Japanese developed their iron working much later than their mainland contemporaries, as they never independently invented furnace technology. The technology for furnaces was imported, most likely from the Korean peninsula.

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[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

So i actually saw a video about this recently. Apparently since japan didnt have like any obvious sources to mine iron ore they had to take a bit of an unorthodox approach and collect iron rich sand from streams and waterways. This Iron was more pure than typical Ore but much harder to work with, and form into tools. So their techniques developed differently. Obviously its all the same elements in use at the end of the day. There is a bit of a difference in the way its worked though, and because of that if not made properly the blades can break kind of easily, and when made with proper technique can also be really strong and high quality. So ya basically its both and neither at the same time. Other places also have cheap blades and really nice ones. Just japan gets hyper focused on by certain groups of people.

Also a western sword is an entirely different weapon. Like we see them all as swords but a Katana is something most people can easily pick up while a western sword was like the size of a grown man and very heavy. Because of this western swords just didnt need to be that sharp. The power behind the swing was enough to cut even with a dullish blade. A Katana was more focused on sharpness since its much smaller and didnt have as much weight behind its swings.

In general tho even in japan spears, bows, etc were much more widely used in ancient warfare anyway lol. Swords just became like an iconic thing due to fantasy.

[–] Egg_Egg@lemm.ee 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The Japanese used western imported iron a lot, as well as western imported guns.

It's difficult to get historic figures for this, but in the early 20th century anywhere between 70-90 percent of iron ore used in Japan was imported, and even almost 100% in some years. There's highly likely to be history to this importing going back a long while. https://d-arch.ide.go.jp/je_archive/english/society/wp_je_unu33.html

Tamahagane steel, the stuff produced from sand, was likely much more popular for ceremonial blades whereas imported steel for blades meant for actual combat. This means the historic examples we have left are more likely to be Tamahagane steel, but if a western swordsman and a Japanese swordsmen were in a position to fight, both would likely be using steel of a similar quality as they would both be using steel from similar places.

One thing to remember is that the empires at the time were very competitive and if Japan was fighting with one of the imperial powers, you can be damn well sure a rival imperial power is supplying Japan with the best equipment to fight back.

Both Europe and Japan had lots of different types of sword, ranging from short to long and light to heavy. You should compare like for like.

Both Europe and Japan used weapons both in warfare and ceremonially.

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[–] ShaunaTheDead@fedia.io 18 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Katana's are weak on the flat side. They aren't really meant to be used for parrying. In fact, most sword fights in Japan would be over after the first or second swing. It was commonplace to hold the grip of a katana but not draw it in such a way so that your enemy has trouble judging how long your katana is and what is a safe distance to be from you. Once your opponent is in range, draw it quickly and kill them in one blow, ideally.

The act of killing your opponent in a single blow is called "nukitsuke" from "nukiuchi" meaning "to cut down an opponent" and "tsuke" meaning "to stop an opponent's attack before it begins".

The Sekiro and popular media image of extended katana fights didn't really happen, but if they did, there would almost certainly be some broken katanas.

[–] superkret@feddit.org 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I promise you, in the real world, fights were just as much of a shield shoving match while trying to slash your opponents ankle as they were in Europe.
The idea of a one-on-one sword fight decided by individual skill is much more of a romantic idea.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

just as much of a shield shoving match while trying to slash your opponents ankle as they were in Europe

lolwut? Try that leg-targetting shit with a HEMA fighter and see how fast you'll bleed out.

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[–] Eiri@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

According to the dictionary, 抜き打ちnukiuchi and 抜き付けnukitsuke sound like synonyms. I'm a little confused.

I guess with uchi (to strike down) vs tsuke (to put, attach, etc) one sounds more like the result and the action but it's weird that the definitions from Jisho.org aren't too explicit.

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[–] TriflingToad@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

I imagine it like a hockey match where when a stick breaks they just go get another one and continue on like nothing happened

[–] _bcron@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not into swords at all but I imagine it's a lot easier to rake the edge of the blade across a surface if it's angled away like a scimitar and more likely to just thwap something perpendicularly with a straight blade. 'Papercut theory' of sorts

[–] Egg_Egg@lemm.ee 11 points 1 day ago

Yeah they're a bit better at slashing whilst a straight sword is slightly better at thrusting. Typically a curved sword is a bit better whilst on horseback or whilst fighting unarmoured or lightly armoured opponents and straight blades are a bit better whilst fighting one-on-one and against somewhat more armoured opponents.

But these are slight differences and sword styles are also varied in each region, so the Japanese did develop swords which were more adapted to thrusting with reinforced tips and Europeans did develop swords which were more effective at slashing.

I think some people obsess over what swords are the best and the worst. In reality the style of sword was unlikely to be the major deciding factor in a one on one fight. The amount and quality of armour and the skill and capacity (Size and strength) of the fighters themselves are much bigger factors.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Yeah, Japanese steel wasn’t great, but they were working with what they had available at the time. Katanas were basically made out of iron dust, which had been melted into slag by filtering through charcoal. The resulting chunks of steel were basically straight up slag, not nice even ingots. So the steel they got was actually extremely high carbon in places, but that also meant it was brittle as hell, because those carbon pockets were prone to shattering.

So the folding was invented, to even out the steel’s carbon content (just like how a Damascus steel blade has visible stripes, Japanese steel had invisible stripes of high and low carbon steel) and to lower the carbon content overall; Every time you heat for another fold, you’re evaporating some carbon. So the folding process took the steel from extremely high carbon pockets to a more evenly distributed carbon content.

Now that modern steel processing exists, the only real reason to stick to the folding method is tradition. There’s no need to fold modern steel ingots because they’re already homogenous and can be produced at whatever carbon level you want.

[–] Pulptastic@midwest.social 1 points 1 day ago

There is still benefit to hot forging the steel to refine and align the microstructure, but it doesn’t have to be many folds.

[–] Egg_Egg@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

Impurities are melted into slag. Not the iron. That's what slag is.

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[–] rtxn@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The same guy would write a five-page essay about how much similar curved swords like scimitars and sabres suck, and might actually die if he is shown a khopesh or a shotel.

[–] andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Althoigh this sword\katana discourse is all known at that point, I can't help myself but adding rapier at the western side to spice things up.

Would rapier\katana comparison work better?

[–] Eiri@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

Rapiers are a tad more modern, but there is a parallel in how they were a bit of a status symbol and often used for less "normal warfare" scenarios.

Japanese soft power funded by US is doing its job

[–] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 47 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Have you seen those warriors from Hammerfell? They've got curved swords.

[–] TheSlad@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 day ago

Curved! Swords!

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[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Sword but very curved and yet not very famous (Ethiopian shotel)

[–] johannesvanderwhales@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Pretty famous among FromSoft fans.

[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 6 points 1 day ago

Dex build rejoice

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[–] gcheliotis@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

This looks more like a scythe that doubles as a weapon to me

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

It was probably inspired by Egyptian khopesh since it was used in Ethiopia even before the kingdom of Axum. Thing is, the blade is sharp on both sides. So you could either use its inner side as big sickle to reach around enemy shield and try for the weak spots like neck, face or armpits, or if the enemy didn't had a shield you could turn it to outer side and in this case it was similar to Persian shamshir in being excellent weapon against unarmored opponents.

Two more interesting thing about it was 1: the designs varies greatly, most were shorter and wider, the curvature also varied; and 2: it apparently worked quite well considering it has been in use for possibly over 2500 years and some Ethiopian emperors even organised special elite units wielding it.

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[–] andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Just how long is that? I struggle to calculate it from what I see.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Blade is around 1 meter long.

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[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Hey, have you seen those Japanese? They have curved swords. Curved... Swords...!

[–] blockheadjt@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

Psst... hail Sithis.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago

Persians absolutely malding right now.

[–] Meron35@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago

Real swords have curves 😤

[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Well it's no 1896 pattern light cavalry saber...

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[–] unemployedclaquer@sopuli.xyz 10 points 1 day ago

I worked with a super nice weird guy. He was always bringing in his 3d printed warhammer sets to the shop. Respect. One day he was talking about his sword. I was like, did you buy the sword in a mall? And he said yes, he bought it in a mall. I should have let it go. Anyways I am not friends with that guy.

[–] Blackout@fedia.io 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I've been watching a japanese sword master on YT demonstrating moves. It's very interesting how they decide when they pull it out which side of the curve they lead with, a choice they make in a split second, and the different attacks each method would have. Even European swords weren't just sharp hammers, they had practical moves and defenses lost in the movies.

[–] Wogi@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

most members of the warrior class were little more than brutish thugs. A handful would have taken the strategy of individual combat seriously and they would have done quite well.

The majority of the people they were fighting were lightly armored at best and they could get away with just swinging the sharp end at the unfortunate peasant conscripted to try to stop them.

There are plenty of examples of knights and samurai alike, falling for just the most obvious trap you could imagine. Templars charging in to open gates, samurai rushing to duel a guy who insulted them, in both cases blood drunk and stupid, children of privilege and in armor by accident of birth.

The Last Duel is a decent example of what happens when guys like that and up fighting each other.

We tend to have a romantic view of the past, but we have a great Instagram filter between us and then. Reality is ugly and violent. Few people are artists, even fewer are talented artists. This is true whether they're painting or drawing blood.

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[–] stupidcasey@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

To be fair it is sharp enough to cut through atoms and space time destroying the fabric of reality allowing you to turn back time to the Big Bang and reshape the universe in your image.

[–] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 3 points 19 hours ago

How about make it straight for a bit, then it do a little back curve near the end?

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 3 points 12 hours ago

are you trying to imply something about my boy shashka?

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