this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
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[–] PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world 185 points 9 months ago (7 children)

Evolutionary biologist here.

I know this is a recurring meme, and it does have a basis in truth. However, in my opinion, it vastly overemphasizes a single aspect of early humans at the expense of other and more important distinct human qualities (and I’m using this term to also refer to our closely related species and ancestors).

First, the real distinction is sociality. Humans are the most cooperative species of hominid. As someone once said, you will never see two chimpanzees carrying a log together. This translates into being able to coordinate efficient hunting practices in a variety of ecosystems.

Second, and very related, is social learning. Other species can also exhibit social learning, but never to the degree humans do. Most species figure out things in evolutionary time - what counts as food, what counts as danger, the best way to do X, etc. Humans do it daily and pass it on to each other. We learn to kill prey by setting fires in grasslands. We develop tools and teach each other how to make and use them. These are all interlocking effects. The bigger our brains get, the more helpless our babies are, so the more we need societies, which creates increasingly complex social dynamics, which rewards more complex brains, and so on.

In short, it’s intelligence and social learning replacing learning in evolutionary time that made humans successful, possibly to the point of self destruction.

[–] can@sh.itjust.works 66 points 9 months ago

possibly to the point of self destruction.

Ah, an optimist

[–] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 40 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I'd also argue that our ability to accurately throw things to a reliable degree plays a huge part in our success as a species.

As far as I'm aware we're one of the only species capable of accurately throwing things with consistency.

[–] Enk1@lemmy.world 23 points 9 months ago

More broadly, we developed more slow twitch muscles that granted us greater fine motor skills, and subsequently the ability to create and use tools. Other apes retained their fast twitch muscles, so their ability to use tools is limited, but pound-for-pound they're FAR stronger than humans.

[–] PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

I agree. I don’t know that I’d rank it quite as high as some other factors if we’re trying to find some function for “causal elements for human ecological success” or something like that, but there’s no doubt it was selected for and the degree to which we are good at it is a good indicator of its importance. Good call.

[–] lanolinoil@lemmy.world 38 points 9 months ago (2 children)

As someone once said, you will never see two chimpanzees carrying a log together.

Such a great point that really drives home just how much we cooperate and take it for granted.

[–] SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 9 months ago

And then people say competition is what makes society go around.

Nah, cooperation is the core of everything we do, and we should embrace it as much as possible.

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[–] rustydrd@sh.itjust.works 11 points 9 months ago

This was a very cool and eloquent explanation. Thank you!

[–] Jackinopolis@sh.itjust.works 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

How much does sleep and dreaming contribute to this? Have you looked into how humans dream compared to other animals? Any papers to point to?

[–] PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

That’s a fascinating question. I am not sure about animal research on dreaming, but Thomas Metzinger is an experimental philosopher (for want of a better term) who studies the basis of the concept of the self as a coherent entity, and his work includes extensive research on phenomena like lucid dreaming, phantom limbs, and out of body experiences. I’m not talking about anything paranormal - there’s conditions under which people’s experience of perception and self become separated from our ordinary experience of “my self is sitting behind my eyeballs.” He collaborates closely with experimental psychologists and neuroscientists, so between his work and references you might be able to see if there’s a correlation.

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[–] misophist@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

In short, it’s intelligence and social learning replacing learning in evolutionary time that made humans successful, possibly to the point of self destruction.

So basically Agent Smith was right. We are a disease, a cancer of this planet.

[–] PrinceWith999Enemies@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

I would say that, like chatgpt, agent smith managed to be not entirely wrong but also not right.

Yes, human beings are absolutely massacring life on the planet - the only planet that we know has life on it. I have a whole hours long spiel on the potentials for extraterrestrial life which I’ll spare you, but it’s truthful to say that, as far as we know, we’re all there is. Does that matter? That’s something that people (who are the only beings we know of who ask questions like that) will have to answer. As of now the answer is between undecided and no.

Anyway, unlike what Agent Smith says, literally everything is trying to do the same thing. If anything, the problem is that we’re exactly like all of those other organisms that are spamming the environment with copies of themselves. All of that fun alcohol we use to manage our perception of our existential crises come from the same dynamic - yeasts reproducing on sugars until they poison themselves with their own waste products, for which we as humans found a useful application.

The key is that when the species co-evolve as part of the same ecosystem, they mutually adapt. When one species invades another ecosystem, the other species there haven’t have had a chance to adapt in evolutionary time and so it sends shockwaves and possibly extinctions throughout the system. Some people believe (with a fairly strong argument) that the disappearance of megafauna - big land animals - followed human radiation over the land masses, and didn’t happen in Africa because all of the big animals co-evolved.

So we started out as an invasive species that just went pretty much everyplace. Were finishing up as a species that has the same kind of tight reproductive loop as those yeast friends, but in doing so we are going to take down a lot of our fellow beings.

[–] Asifall@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

Interesting, I admit that I didn’t realize until I just did a little research that persistence hunting as a significant feature in early humans isn’t actually well supported by much if any evidence.

Are there other theories on why humans seem to be almost uniquely good at distance running? Is it a spandrel?

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 105 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Mom! Look what I can do! profusely sweats

[–] RockAndGnome@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago

"stop shedding hair young man!"

[–] random_character_a@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

...I also smell profusely like musky urine.

[–] ivanafterall@kbin.social 13 points 9 months ago

It isn't polite to brag, sweetie.

[–] InfiniWheel@lemmy.one 77 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Humanity's secret weapon: power walking

[–] IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works 38 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] bastian_5@sh.itjust.works 8 points 9 months ago

And throwing shit very well

[–] qooqie@lemmy.world 58 points 9 months ago (5 children)

It’s a fucking horror movie trying to run from something like that

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 18 points 9 months ago (9 children)

The snail is terrifying.

You get lots of wealth, but a magic snail is trying to find you. If it touches you, you die.

You cannot track or kill or permanently trap it, it is constant moving towards you.

Something like that

[–] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Snail takes a 1.3 days to crawl a mile, 280 miles a year. With a huge amount of wealth you can just move to the otherside of the country or ocean every 6 or 7 years.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 13 points 9 months ago (6 children)

The snail is intelligent and understands transportation.

Still take the deal?

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[–] RockAndGnome@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

*Halloween music gets more intense

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[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 28 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Speak for yourself! I get tired easily

[–] ivanafterall@kbin.social 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I just woke up and I'm so tired.

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[–] Shiggles@sh.itjust.works 24 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I dunno if a thrown spear counts as “short range” in a primitive world

[–] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 25 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Atlatls are over 20000 y/o and are futher range than just spears.

Bow and arrows show up in the archaeological record ~70000 years ago.

So, yeah both those are longer range than spears and predate writing and use of most metals.

So if you consider pre bronze age primitive; yes spears are short range.

[–] EatYouWell@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

They recently discovered evidence that the atlatl was used 30,000 years ago.

[–] Stache_@lemmy.ml 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Heck, slings were around even before bow and arrows and can definitely be considered long range

[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

We probably got pretty good at picking birds out of trees with those things back when our dinner depended on it. There were definitely some impressive acts of slingery going on at some point.

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[–] threeduck@aussie.zone 23 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Hey who you calling primit-

Primittititiv-...

HOO

HOOOO HOOO HAA HAAAAAA

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[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 22 points 9 months ago (1 children)

"That Terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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[–] ZeroXHunter@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

Let's not kid ourselves, the real reason is the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP!

[–] grey@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 9 months ago

And then somebody invented the idea of THROWING a rock and suddenly the game of earth is SOLVED.

[–] squiblet@kbin.social 7 points 9 months ago (7 children)

Humans never get tired from exercise?

[–] Cannibal_MoshpitV3@lemmy.world 53 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

Humans have the highest capacity for endurance and for a very long time we hunted not by being smarter but by literally following animals until they got tired and gave up before we did.

[–] nixcamic@lemmy.world 26 points 9 months ago (3 children)

I believe certain breeds of dogs and horses can keep up with us, but only because we bred them to.

[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 23 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Early human to wolf: "You stalk. I stalk. Stalk together?"

Wolf: "Us BFF4Eva hairless ape"

The most enduring love story in human history.

[–] name_NULL111653@pawb.social 17 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)
[–] LemmysMum@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

Peak animal capacity right there. Imagine being so totally and entirely beyond the abilities of our contemporaries that this is considered an apex predator.

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[–] 0ops@lemm.ee 15 points 9 months ago (2 children)

To follow an animal often required tracking it when it ran out of sight. Our sense of smell stinks, so we looked for clues on where it went. That's smart

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[–] ssboomman@lemm.ee 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (5 children)

That, plus we are good at throwing things and we sweat. Which means we have range and we can cool off while still being active.

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[–] eestileib@sh.itjust.works 6 points 9 months ago

Also, teamwork. Chasing animals in circles and handing off.

[–] 0ops@lemm.ee 27 points 9 months ago

If they're fit, not too tired. Humans are some of the best distance runners in the animal kingdom, and we can walk virtually forever. And we can regulate our own body temperature by sweating. And we can carry some extra food and water with us. And we are capable of being excellent trackers as well. The joke in the op is about how humans used to hunt - by chasing an animal until it collapses of exhaustion. Some tribes still do this today

[–] Voyajer@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)
[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 9 points 9 months ago (4 children)

As a group we do not. Grab 5 buddies, take turns jogging, follow a deer until it either falls off a cliff/gets exhausted/makes some other mistake.

If it runs, chill, just spread out and keep it in sight.

This is how the human do

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