When the rich break the social contract.
this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
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Punching nazis. Always acceptable, even encouraged.
Punching nazis is always self defense.
Itβs kind of infuriating how many un-punched Nazis there are out there.
I want to hear from the two down votes who didn't comment. Fuck nazis and their shitty sympathizers. A punch isn't enough
Self defense. But also like someone else said proportionate response is key. If someone gets mad at you in a bar and throws a punch, pushing him away is fine. Hitting him to subdue him is probably okay. Shooting him dead is not.
I'm also not really okay with people using murder to defend their stuff. Like if someone sneaks into my house and I catch them going out the window with my tv, shooting them is not to me justified. There are more TV's. That guy gets one life. Remember what Gandalf said.
I think a lot of people have like tough guy fantasies about shooting a burglar and it always makes me uncomfortable.
On the other hand, if someone was on trial for shooting a Nazi dead I would find them not guilty. Shame that Nazi spontaneously bled out. But at least he's gone before he killed my entire family and friends.
Remember what Gandalf said.
"You haven't aged a day"?
For anyone who sincerely didn't get the reference:
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
βFool of a Tookβ
I'm good with you shooting someone entering your house, but not when they're leaving. I don't expect people, especially vulnerable ones, to bet their life that the guy breaking in is a thief and not a rapist or murderer.
It might be availability bias or similar, but there are a lot of stories about people shooting people entering their house or property that should not have been shot.
There was one about a kid who went to the wrong house https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ralph-yarl-shooting-victim-highly-intelligent-gentle-soul-former-teach-rcna80024
There was a story about delivery drivers who got shot at recently. https://www.npr.org/2023/04/23/1171507677/south-florida-shot-at-instacart-delivery-driver-wrong-address. That's actually a good example of the shooter unnecessarily escalating. He could've just... Not shot at them. They were trying to leave.
There's the related story of https://www.npr.org/2023/04/18/1170593395/kaylin-gillis-new-york-driveway-kevin-monahan that page links
None of these are okay.
It's possible there's a bunch of unreported instances of people successfully defending themselves with guns. Scenarios like that where the person on the property really was there with deadly intentions. But I kind of feel like no. I'm pretty sure the scenario of "someone breaks into your house to murder you!" is actually extremely rare. (or if it does happen, it's the police)
We should also take a moment to think on the chilling effect accepting this level of violence has. I don't want this to be a world where I have to worry about being shot because some idiot feared for his life or property.
I was visiting a friend in upstate New York and I was legit worried walking from the train to their place. I wasn't sure which house was my friend's. I called them and had them come out and greet me because I didn't want to risk going to a neighbor's house by accident, and have that neighbor shoot me because they thought I was a burglar. And I'm a white guy.
I would agree those are unreasonable uses of force. And bad raids don't end with LEO getting shot nearly enough.
The comment I was replying to mentioned someone stealing a TV through a window if I'm not mistaken, and that's what I'm referring to. But if you decide to force your way into someone's house, it's not on them to interrogate you to determine your intent. I have respect for people that would risk themselves in a situation they didn't create, but I don't think it's reasonable to force everyone to behave as tho the guy that just broke your window or forced his way into your house is just there for a cup of tea.
Violence is justified when itβs needed to protect yourself or someone else from violence. Thatβs about it, honestly.
I am not a fan of pre-emptive violence.
What about post-emptive violence?
Surely protecting is by definition preemptive since it means you are not allowing the violence against yourself or someone else to occur? Not saying your first point is wrong just doesn't seem consistent to me.
Only revenge/retribution would not be preemptive which imo is not better.
Preemptive is a different word from defending because they mean different things. Preemptive violence is violence that happens before a threat exists because of the possibility of a threat.
So shooting your neighbor on Tuesday because think he might be violent on Wednesday. If on Wednesday he shows up and makes verbal threats of imminent violence, responding to the threat of violence by being violent first would be self defense and not preemptive because the threat actually exists at the time. Timing and context matter, not who literally who gets off the first shot/punch/violent act.
There are situations where people have created a situation where you don't have total knowledge of the future, but acting in defense seems justified.
I think we can quibble over the specifics about what's reasonable, but you don't have to wait until you're bleeding out to defend yourself.
For me personally, the answer to the original question would be "only once no other non-violent means are available".
Does this resonate, or would you consider it different to your perspective? I see them as similar.
Personally, I'd prefer non-violent over violent means for myself. If other people are involved it would depend - I won't risk someone else's life if I can avoid it. I tell my niece that she's allowed to stab dudes that don't respond to "no".
Self dΓ©fense, yep. On a battlefield ? Let these old fuck fight one vs one to resolve their conflict. A noble end is so fucking subjective that I think it would be a terrible idea.
Nobody else has mentioned proportionality.
When responding to aggression, the response should not significantly escalate the risk. So lethal force should only be applied in scenarios where there is a lethal threat, etc.
Perceived lethal threat
Self defense, as part of a game (such as wrestling) or in BDSM, when both sides are okay with it and don't face actual danger.
Safe, sane, consensual.
Use of some violence is justified to stop another bigger, ongoing violence.
Violence is justified when you have no other means left to defend yourself or someone else otherwise.
At which point I would like to add that people will sometimes not be able to see the means they have left because they are put in a stressful situation in a second. I feel like you can't really blame them for that.
Violence as a response should always be in proportion. That should avoid escalation. In an ideal world.
Unfortunately some people won't stop. Those people need to be put into prison where they cannot hurt anyone anymore.
when someone is WRONG on the internet
You are wrong
Yes.
We'll put.
Self defense but also including defending your rights, freedom, property, and sovereignty
Self defense
Violence is a form of escalation. One should never cause a conflict to come to a new height and should only resort to something if in response to anything of that same height.
Also, if a ruler of a nation resorts to that, it shows they're not a great/effective ruler. Fluency in how to rule is determined by how much peace you can accomplish with as little change as possible. Less is more, as they say. If you have to punish people too often like some are doing, you're violating that "less is more" rule.
Much more often than I actually do it.
this is where the mythological concept of sin sorta helps. So its a bad thing but basically you decide at what point doing the bad thing is worse than other bad things but you can't ever make it not a bad thing. You just accept its price at some point and its ultimately and individual decision and I don't think many will know until that moment. For myself I try to avoid it as much as I can but I don't know in what situation I will be driven to it.
Striking someone that could cause lots of violence to others otherwise...
Of course violence would be the last resort in this case as well, in my opinion, but it would be the lesser evil.
Some people use violence to fuel their morbid curiosity.
Can it help an individual who delves into such topic through discussions and material?
I'd argue removing the bandits ability to cause further dismemberment by means of violence against them and being consumed by rage and hatred are two different things.
Just a curious question: Would that also apply to your loved ones being savagely killed?
Lol, I told her recently that if she dies giving birth to our child, I will be totally devastated. I didn't have a mom because she did giving birth to my sister when I was baby.
But, if someone is responsible for her death, of course I'll be both devastated and vengeful. Even so, a part of me will want peace and serenity, and that part of me will see accepting what happened is the best way to do that.
You can do no violence but also feel sorrow at violence being done. Not only are those stances not incompatible but I'd argue they're in alignment. Violence, done by you, to you or simply involving others, is an occurrence to weep for. Some people are being put through unnecessary pain and some people are of an unsound mind and believe putting others through pain is justified.
I won't judge someone who defends themselves for self preservation but I will applaud someone who continues to try and deescalate violence even as it's being enacted on them... though I will clarify this is all at the adult level, children take some time to come to awareness of who and what other people are and are still growing into their full selves.
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Usually never.
It's always a matter of degrees. The bigger the injustice, the more violence is justified to rectify it. It is in the disproportionality, in my view, where the problem arises.
Never forget that humans are just barely evolved apes. Sometimes a swift knock to the head is required to activate those neural pathways to discourage anti-social behavior. Not always, but also not never. Claiming otherwise is just self-aggrandizing moralization that people use to make themselves sound and feel superior.
To protect against violence
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