this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
260 points (86.1% liked)

Economics

1672 readers
1 users here now

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Why? Because apparently they need some more incentive to keep units occupied. Also, even though a property might be vacant, there's still imputed rental income there. Its owner is just receiving it in the form of enjoying the unit for himself instead of receiving an actual rent check from a tenant. That imputed rent ought to be taxed like any other income.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] zurohki@aussie.zone 92 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Income tax when you aren't receiving an income is a weird idea.

It sounds like the author wants a land tax, but hasn't ever heard the term.

[–] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 57 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Another term is a vacant homes tax, something Vancouver and Toronto in Canada are using.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.ca 20 points 1 year ago (5 children)

These sorts of narrow, “feel-good” taxes are the wrong way to go. People find loopholes to avoid paying them.

Georgist land value tax (LVT) is straightforward and cannot be avoided. It incentivizes owned land to be utilized, otherwise it becomes a huge liability. It does not disincentivize improvements (building stuff) because taxes are tied to underlying land values, not improved property value.

[–] MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

For those who are interested enough to read some fairly dense text on the topic here is a website for you. land value taxation: urban land values

[–] danc4498@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, if I own a condo in a high rise building, how does this work? Does the building get the tax, and that gets divided up among all the condos? Or does each living space get it's own tax?

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Would get divided based on your share.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] stizzah@feddit.it 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Owning a house that you don't inhabit is weirder.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] TenderfootGungi@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Just make property taxes higher for empty buildings. Prorate per month. I thought some country was trying this?

For rentals in general, trying to solve a different problem, we should drastically increase property taxes and then give a discount for primary residence that puts it back to where it is now.

[–] JayDee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

That's what I think too. A law where you pay more tax for additional properties you own on top of your first home. I don't know enough about the housing market to know if such a law would actually help, but at first glance it does seem like it'd break up some of the corporate slum lord businesses around the US

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The owner of an apartment is always receiving income from it, either in the form of the rent check or whatever utility it provides for him to keep it to himself.

I don't like land taxes and other property taxes because I don't think there's a good way to apply those taxes progressively. Rather, if we just take the imputed rent of a given asset (land, building, car, etc.) and add that to the taxpayer's income, the the progressive income tax can just do its thing.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are so many empty business spaces in my town because landlords can just sit on them -- and potentially rake in tax credits -- even though no one wants to rent at their rates.

Needs to stop.

[–] zabadoh@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's why San Francisco implemented a vacant storefront tax.

But getting commercial landlords to comply has been a struggle.

https://therealdeal.com/sanfrancisco/2023/06/01/few-retailers-respond-to-sfs-new-vacancy-tax-as-only-2-6-pay-up/

[–] bobs_monkey@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I was just in SF a month ago for the Dead & Co shows, and it really is astonishing how empty a lot of storefronts are, especially where we were staying up near North Beach/FW. Also too, the lack of late night food; in all the years I've been going to SF, you could always count on a noodle bar in Chinatown at 12-1a to be open, but not anymore. Not really anything except fast food. COVID wrecked that town. I've also never seen so few homeless people walking around, but I didn't head over to Oakland.

[–] vivadanang@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

they could repurpose those buildings (difficult but possible) to dwellings, which would revitalize the downtown businesses - but no, they'll hold out desperately for a return to office that, if it was going to happen, would have happened already.

Meanwhile, there ain't enough housing. Everyone pays more and the core rots.

[–] zabadoh@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

It's not just San Francisco.

Vancouver BC and nearby towns have a similar problem, and are working towards their own empty storefront tax.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-metro-municipalities-to-consider-taxing-vacant-commercial-sites

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] DaSaw@midwest.social 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"Income tax on their properties whether they're rented or not" is just a long way of saying "land value taxation".

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 5 points 1 year ago

I disagree. Land value taxes are flat unlike a progressive income taxes. Therefore, a land value tax can be unfairly burdensome to people with low incomes who happen to own land. If imputed rent is taxed as income, then the tax burden is more fairly shared. It also creates more insentive to keep rents low and units occupied.

[–] beteljuice@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

What's really fucked up is that selling a rental property doesn't incur the same tax penalties as selling a lived-in home. Should be the opposite. How ass-backwards can you get?

[–] HowMany@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Where do landlords get their money? (the money they exist with).

From renters.

If they have to pay money (as taxes) for rentals that aren't occupied, where will that money come from?

From renters in the form of higher rents.

Are you SURE you want to go through with this?

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The solution is simply for landlords to keep their units occupied and they can increase occupancy rates by lowering rents, which will also have the effect of lowering their tax obligations. I'm not sure what you think the problem is.

[–] essellburns@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's certainly the preferable solution, I guess it's worth asking if it would work out that way.

So for example, I own 100 houses and I earn £100 per month for each one. (Values for purposes of illustration only!)

Let's assume 10% are empty at one time.

With an income of £9,000 per month I'm paying 20% tax on that, £1800.

Up that tax to £2000 under this scheme, costing me £200 per month.

so do I drop rents by £5 per building which is going to mean my income changes to £9500 minus £1900 tax for a net earnings of £7600

Or do I increase rents by £5 and keep running with 10% empty buildings? Earnings are now £9450 with a tax bill of £2100. Net earnings of £7350 while holding onto hope that I could rent out some of those other empty buildings?

Put simply, if I'm the kind of person who owns a 100 buildings do you imagine my instinctive response is going to be to cut prices or to pass on my costs to tenants?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] charonn0@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Its owner is just receiving it in the form of enjoying the unit for himself

What's actually wrong with that?

[–] 2CatsOneBowl@aussie.zone 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know about anywhere else but in Australia if you are using the unit you can't claim the expenses as a rental, so there's no advantage to keeping it empty.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 1 points 1 year ago

It makes sense for landlords to hold out for higher rents sometimes. In NYC and probably other places, landlords can get tax breaks if they agree to rent stabilization rules, which set the limit for rent increases each year. One way for landlords to take advantage of this arrangement in to keep units off the market until they think rents are relatively high so that they can get the most out of the allowed increases, while still getting the tax break.

Also, with property values increasing, it can be very tolerable just on to hold onto a vacant unit. What do you need an annoying tenant for if the property keeps appreciating and you can even maybe get a line of credit out of it?

In the context of imputed rent, it doesn't really matter what the owner personally gets out of keeping a property to himself. If the market rent for the unit is $2,000/month, that means the owner is getting $2,000/month worth of some kind enjoyment out of having it. That's because if he didn't own it he would have to pay whomever did $2,000/month for the privilege. It's not immediately obvious, but the income is the rent you don't have to pay when you are both the owner and possessor of a piece of property.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

There are lots of ways to tax landowners, but ultimately they all punish landowners for existing (which is a great thing for society) so instead they become weird neo-liberal market based schemes like tax credits for entrepreneurs who own land in a disadvantaged area for at least 3 years. so that the people that will be targetted by the tax are able to avoid it by claiming that they also own the bodega in their slum, thereby making them an entrepreneur.

Ultimately it's not that the people proposing these taxes can't come up with better tax schemes, it's that they are paid to come up with ridiculous schemes that are designed not to eliminate landowners.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The effect of this would be a massive disincentive for landlords to engage in major remodels or reconstructions to rental units, impeding growth in housing and remodeling of units beyond the kind of basic paint and sweep that is typical between tenants.

Just increase the land value tax.

[–] Delphia@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Easiest solution would be to have 2 property tax brackets and manage it at a city council level.

Occupied/under maintenance or vacant. If you rent a house you show the city council the lease and they give you a form that says you're entitled to the lower rate for the term of the tenancy,or you go to them and inform them that the property is underrgoing maintenance and is expected to be that way for X months and again you're entitled to the lower rate. If you cant provide evidence or tenancy or maintenance/repairs for say... 75% of the year, you pay a higher rate. Not extortion levels of higher but a definite incentive.

Oh and absolutely ball breaking fines for anyone found to be doing dodgy shit.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Landlords generally aren't going to decline making money. If they're not renting these units out, that implies that doing so would cost them money despite the rent they would receive. You can force them to rent the units out anyway, but ultimately they're not going to agree to keep losing money forever. Either they find some loophole that does let them make money, or eventually you end up with abandoned property inhabited by people who can't or won't pay enough to actually maintain that property.

I've never owned rent-controlled property, but I did own a house which I kept empty for about a year instead of renting out. (Eventually I sold it.) Market rent wasn't enough to motivate me to do the work and take on the risks associated with having tenants. I know another guy who lives alone in a big two-family house for the same reasons. Some people who don't own property seem to think that renting it out is just free money, but things aren't that simple...

[–] idiomaddict@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Landlords don’t generally leave money on the table.

Here’s two anecdotes about landlords leaving money on the table.

The thing is, there’s too much hassle and insecurity there for you. The income tax on empty properties would almost certainly change the equation, whether it incentivizes you to sell the building or rent it out, that helps tenants.

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I wouldn't say that I was leaving money on the table. There's a difference between gross income and net income - my gross income would have increased if I rented my house out, but my costs would have increased as well. Once I accounted for the cost of my time, of the additional maintenance, and of the risk that I would get someone who refused to pay rent, trashed the place, and took a year to evict, I decided that the net income from renting would be negative.

I was just a guy with a house, not a professional landlord. I think a professional would have found a profitable way to rent out a house like mine (because it wasn't rent-controlled). But these vacant properties are already owned by professional landlords - I'm not sure who you think would find a way to make money off of renting them out if the professionals can't. And why would someone buy a property that doesn't make money?

(I suppose some people would buy them for a low price as a bet that the restrictive regulation will be repealed someday. Where I live, you can already get cheap rent-controlled property in very expensive parts of town with the hope that you might eventually be able to get the tenant out of there. But I don't see this as a viable large-scale solution.)

[–] idiomaddict@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Either the properties are valuable as rental properties, they’re not especially suited for rental properties, or they’re not fit to live in. If they’re in the first category, great. If they’re in the second, forcing a landlord to sell instead of sitting on an empty property helps, in that it creates more supply of livable homes for people making the leap to homeownership (that’s the answer to who would buy a house that doesn’t make them money: people who want to live in it). If the property is unsafe/unlivable, it should be repaired in a timely manner or torn down.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] JayDee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If you read the article, they state exactly what you just said. NYC has many unoccupied apartments which are not being filled because the renters concluded that the rent would not pay for cost of upkeep. They're not selling the properties either, though.

This is occurring in the midst of homelessness being on the rise. A law like this would be to either force the renter to put the property on the market, or fill the vacancy.

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The point I'm trying to make is that if renting the property out is a net loss and whoever owns it is required to rent it out, there's almost no reason for a person who intends to comply with the law to want to own the property. Forget selling - why would anyone even take it for free if it was just a permanent money sink?

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 4 points 1 year ago

The idea is that properties beyond the first get taxed more heavily. So if you're going to buy an investment property, you better damn well make it attractive to rent.

[–] JayDee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Forget selling - why would anyone even take it for free if it was just a permanent money sink

Because it's a place to live in without having rent being arbitrarily dictated by some random dude. It's instead a tax you pay based on who you vote for.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly if a potential rental unit won't cover the costs associated with renting it, I can't think about how salable it's going to be. Seems like a market failure and my guess is that it probably has to do with the extensive regulations on rentals in NYC and how hard it is to get rid of a bad tenant.

[–] JayDee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It may not be salable to a renter but it's probably going to still be salable to people who actually need a place to live.

Also, yes, plenty of landlords would be screwed into a situation where they'll lose money either way and will just lose more money from holding onto the property than from selling.

[–] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

I doubt that. If a properly is salable and isn't rentable, a landlord will generally just sell it.

[–] socsa@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

What you are describing is the same problem though. If you sell it and someone comes in and renovates it for use as a primary residence, then it is no longer affordable housing.

[–] HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 year ago

I suspect a lot of it is an opportunity-cost fixation. If I rent this unit to you today at $900/month, what happens if someone comes in tomorrow offering $1300 and I have to say "sold out."

I know with commercial space, the financing and valuation associated with the properties are dependent on specific rent levels, where it's better for Wall Street to see an empty $4000 unit than a full $3000 one.

[–] lobut@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

I think Louis Rossmann has a series on corporate property (I know we're discussing housing), but in New York it's weird how some of the owners have weird deals where it was better to keep it empty than to take a lower desired price on the property. Like keeping the store empty for years.

I'm not sure what the deal was. It's probably something to do with the loan they received or with the city.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 1 points 1 year ago

Holding out for a better deal seems like common behavior for anyone. You describe doing it yourself. However, the consequences of withholding housing are pretty bad. We need policies that convince landlords to cut their losses sooner and either accept lower rents or sell to buyers who will.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›