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this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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On Reddit I remember getting called a "space Karen" for pointing this out in a discussion about Starlink. Elon Musk fanboys are some of the worst. Second only to Q fanboys.
Well the issue is that not everything is black and white.
On one hand, these satellites can potentially absolutely wreak havok on astronomy, and our own view of the night sky. Nobody wants that.
On the other hand, in a few years, these satellites are able to provide cheap internet all over the planet, which would allow poor remote communities in South America, Africa, and Asia access to the internet, which is practically impossible through any other means. IMO, its worth the tradeoff. I think helping people is more important than astronomy, but I recognize that that's just my opinion
Ironically, starlink was used by illegal miners on the Amazon to coordinate operations and avoid policing.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/16/americas/spacex-starlink-amazon-brazil-mining-intl-latam/index.html
Yes the internet is indeed useful to have
Okay but you're falling into Elon's trap. You can't weigh future potential against current harm naively. Particularly when it comes from somebody with a long history of over promising and under delivering. Since we pay the full price up front (loss of science, etc) but will never reap the full benefits promised.
For instance: it could help remote villages or third world countries. But Starlink costs a pretty penny in western money those places lack. Otherwise they would already have traditional infrastructure.
Do those remote villages even have the power to plug in a PC and starlink equipment?
In college I helped make solar phone chargers for some villages in wartorn areas. They would walk days to charge their phones and battery banks, then walk back. Somehow they had cellular service, but the power lines to their village were ripped down during a conflict.
There's probably an exceedingly small population that is in a third world place with power, with devices that need internet, but are also without internet.
It’s not a distant future, the benefits are already here and increasing with each launch.
I’ve been tracking a sailboat crossing the Atlantic Ocean the past weeks which have been able to upload videos to YouTube everyday, something that would be impossible without Starlink.
Of course, this specific use case isn’t important, just used it to point out that Starlink is already working well.
I agree that we can't trust Elon.. but hasn't Starlink already helped Ukrainians? I remember he messed it up for a bit, but if we took Elon out of the picture but kept Starlink, the debate gets more interesting.
If you are like the guy you are responding to and prioritize people over astrology(which I'm not sure I do tbh), I don't think they are being naive weighing future potential vs current harm. Easy internet access anywhere in the world vs deep space study from Earth isn't black and white.
Personally, I'd choose space, but I can imagine a lot of people would choose the more humanitarian approach.
To my knowledge absolutely nothing critical to Ukranian defense uses Starlink.
And again, what is niave is to not heavily discount any claims Elon makes. Starlink provides neglible value currently, what potential might exist is imaginary.
The best thing for the world is to realize Elon was a sunk cost and move on
Elon already fucked with their starlink I believe, but I didn’t recheck to be fair. Also seriously, don’t trust that man with shit.
I tried to separate the conversation from Elon to keep it more honest about the benefits of accessible internet for everyone anywhere on Earth. If we just want to do a "Fuck Elon" conversation, I'm on your side and that conversations done.
but why would the potential benefits of satellite internet be imaginary, but the potential benefits of deep space study not be?
and again, I'd way rather progress on the space front than help humanity, but thankfully those aren't my decisions to make.
So why do you think that launching thousands of satellites would be more cost-effective than other options?
Satellites are expensive.
Launching them into space is expensive.
Cell phones, and cell phone towers are cheap.
Elon Musk is launching them into an orbit where they'll decay in 10 years anyway, meaning you'll have to perpetually launch these thousands, or even 10s of thousands of satellites into space just to keep service.
Traditional satellite companies launch fewer numbers of many satellites into the sky to cover large swaths of land instead. Since they aim at rural areas (ex: the Ocean with no one there), they are superior in a cost/efficacy perspective. Yes, there's less bandwidth, but there's less people, so its a fine tradeoff.
If you need more density, building cell phone networks / cell phone towers is just superior.
If you need even more density than what cell phones can give you, then there's always fiber optic directly.
Well, a quick google makes me think a single cell tower and a single satellite are close to the same price.
I think it would take a lot more work and money to set up towers in the poor countries/areas infrastructure doesn't exist/hard terrain/desolate areas/warzones/middle of the ocean/etc. But you'd have to weigh in the sacrificing space, which is invaluable to me personally.
I just think it's an interesting conversation to have. It feels like a small part of the debate of helping the planet vs going to space.
All the satellites in question burn up within 10ish years due to their placement in orbit. In fact, a large number of SpaceX satellites already exploded due to mistakes during their deployment.
Cell towers don't burn up like that just sitting around.
Cool. We already have Hughesnet and have had it for decades.
Well, I don't really see the issue with some satellites blowing up at first. So did some of the first space ships. That's just part of advancements.
If there wasn't the interference involved with the Starlink satellites, personally I'd prefer satellites over covering the earth in a grid of cell towers every 25ish miles tbh.
But sure, Hughesnet works fine. If you need service outside of a developed area, it should be capable enough.
I was looking more at a thought of what was more important, space exploration or easily accessible unlimited information for anyone, anywhere on earth. I keep choosing space, but I was hoping to get more of an interesting conversation I guess.
You don't understand then. The Starlink satellites are designed to fall out of the sky, explicitly. They're at an extremely low orbit. The entire constellation will fall out of the sky on a regular basis.
That's the explicit design of Starlink. Its collossally stupid. The lower your orbit, the sooner you crash into Earth. Starlink has chosen one of the lowest orbits.
Hughesnet's satellite is in contrast, in a 500+ year orbit. So they don't have to replace their satellite all the time. Also, there's only a few of them, its not like Starlink that has thousands of them.
By being lower in the sky, Starlink satellites have a limited range and only cover a small area. They need many, many,many satellites to even have hope, extending the costs and destroying the feasibility of the entire design.
Lmao go run some fiop in the Amazon and let me know how that shakes out
For the third time, you cannot separate the grifter from the grift. That's not "Fuck Elon", that's "starlink is not, and never will be, what was promised"
Similarly, you can't weigh an abstract possibility versus a real cost. You want the conversation to be some philosophical discourse about social vs societal value. But it's not that, it's a real situation right now.
And in this real life situation, we have to evaluate what starlink actually is - - a failed toy for wealthy early adopters - - and not what some abstract "could be".
Especially when we know for a fact that any public promises of that potential are certainly intended to mislead and not inform.
so this is just an anti-Elon conversation right? It doesn't feel like an honest conversation about the actual topic.
We agree, Fuck Elon, been great talking. Cheers
It's definitely not an honest conversation when you've deliberately and repeatedly chosen to misunderstand what's being said.
It's time to grow up and stop believing hucksters and grifters.
I'm not misunderstanding. You are calling it a failed toy, when it works. It's definitely being used by the Ukrainian military and was considered essential, that's why it was in the news when Elon disconnected it for a day, and why America and other sources are paying for it in the Ukraine. They wouldn't be doing that for a failed toy.
For almost the same price as setting up traditional internet at your house, you could do get Starlink and see for yourself. My buddy has it, and it works just fine.
Starlink has shown tangible benefits. The issue is that the satellites are interrupting deep space study. That should be the conversation, but some reason it just keeps coming back to Musk. It's a waste of a conversation.
If he gets abducted by aliens today, then what? Starlink doesn't just disappear. Neither do electric cars. These things will go on without him
Most people value everything over astrology....
Isn't Starlink still heavily limited by the geography you are in. As in there cannot be too many subscribers in any one place because it will use all the capacity? If that's still the case seems doubtful it will ever bring anything cheap to the masses.
Ribbit
At least SpaceX restarted the cheap launch race and is giving us the option of heavy but affordable payloads for scientific instruments.
LEO junk will only get worse with time, so let's start planning for it.
"Practically impossible" is a horrible way to describe it. It's not practically impossible; the solution and methods are eminently doable, they just aren't done (yet) because of cost in poor areas with relatively weak governments. Most of those areas will get reliable non-satellite internet in the years to come.
We can talk up the good of systems like Starlink without hyping it up as delivering something that is otherwise impossible.
Sure, but you're creating a false dichotomy to get to your conclusion. The way Starlink is creating its satellite network is not the only way to create one. Viasat doesn't blanket the globe in satellites.
Very well out! I agree about the trade-off.
all these comments discussing ukraine wartime internet, or poorer communities in south america. meanwhile, i have zero interest in musk, but starlink has been a fantastic Internet option for me in rural US.
my other options are borderline unusable DSL, or a couple of line-of-sight wireless providers which would require cutting down who knows how many trees to even have a hope of connectivity.
there are a significant number of people living in this area, but no decent wired or cellular internet options and despite my state getting a large federal grant to improve internet speeds, I have zero expectation it will be improved for me.
Same here, we're not rural enough to get grant money but not suburban enough to get cable. And everybody who says Hughesnet is fine has definitely never used it. I could never have worked from home through the pandemic if we hadn't gotten starlink.
It sounds insane but you should look into building a rural ISP. This guy in Michigan did it and he can barely keep up with demand in his rural community.
Funny, “Space Karen” is a really common name for Elon.
I strongly dislike Elon Musk but Starlink is a net win, and science can and must evolve to overcome these sorts of challenges. Nearby space is only going to get more crowded
I have to agree here. I think a temporary compromise could be reducing the constellation size, spread out the dishes and reduce throughput. The accessibility Starlink offers is a 11/10 win for the world. But the bandwidth and size should come after we have better mitigation for Kessler Syndrome and inference with observing the universe. Alternatively, lets slap some big fuckin' telescopes on the moon and call it a day!
Fanboys for anyone are the worst.
We as fucking adults should be able to criticize anything and anyone we believe in. Especially if you believe in them.
That’s called security in your beliefs, go figure that our chronically insecure populace would refuse to question their beliefs
so many people tie their self worth to something ridiculous, like a personality, or a sports team, or politician, and absolutely lose their mind over any criticism or wrong doing, because they take it as a personal assault on them.
I think it’s understandable to want to be a part of something bigger, and we want to defend our comfort zones so people get carried away.
To me, it’s just immature
Theres a difference between being part of something bigger, and tying your identity and self worth to a person or thing.
Look, anyone who can fit a laser beam and a grappling hook inside a wrist-watch deserves your respect.
That is a Q worthy of a fandom.
"Q fanboys"?
I think they mean QAnon fanboys.
No, they're just big fans of the guy who makes all the gadgets in James Bond.
Or maybe they're really into omnipotent beings with a mean sense of humor...
yeah i’ve just never heard the term fanboy for that group