this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2024
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Not trying to start a fight, just curious. If you (vegans) already know we (meat eaters) don't care, why would you keep pursuing that line of argument?
At least for my part:
For the same reason I try to fight against injustices for people?
Why do I, as a male, condemn sexist behavior and fight against it? Why do I, as a teacher, stand in for the rights of my students when they get wronged? Why do I, as a human, hate to see other people fighting?
It's a mixture between empathy and a feeling of justice.
I just dislike unjust behavior - and for me, animal cruelty is unjust.
I think you meant you condemn sexist behavior...
Big Oof.
Thanks for the note, I was kinda hastily writing this and not thinking it through.
Sounds like you should be working on laws to restrict meat eating. That's typically how we handle injustices on a society wide scale.
You can't work on laws to restrict meat eating without getting the public onboard first. Our democracy is flawed, sure, but we don't live in an autocracy. Vegan activists do work day in and day out on lobbying for legislation. California just the other day banned octopus farming.
But that worked because the public was broadly onboard with it because of the recent public understanding of how intelligent octopodes are. If California somehow passed a restriction on meats like pork, beef, chicken, etc., then the entire state would immediately riot and kick the legislature out, completely undoing the restriction.
Good point.
May I ask this.... Would you decide to gradually change your lifestyle to a less cruel one when the vegan arguments seem to be correct or would you rather wait for a law against eating meat?
Me personally? I don't care about cruelty, so what would get me to change is a law that says I must. Or legal/economic incentives.
I do care about the environment, so I don't eat beef. But that's not common. Most people who don't care about animal cruelty also don't care about the environment.
That sounds like you have that "if it doesn't affect me, why would I care" mind, which would be crazy. But I might have got that wrong what you just said.
To not care about cruelty is not "normal". To not have empathy for animals is far from normal. If I go into the city and show people videos of animal abuse, they'd be shocked. They have empathy.
So I wonder, why do you say that you don't care about cruelty? Is that just in regard to animals? Or do you also not care about other people suffering?
And for the second part: I disagree. People tend to care about the environment even though they consume animal products. It's just that they don't care enough so that they'll change their way of living. They prefer not to go out of their comfort zone. They want to consume. And they put personal wealth over the wellbeing of nature and other individuals if you ask me
I think it's a perfectly valid and internally consistent moral framework to care far more about the suffering of humans than animals.
Also, "don't care" is a bit of an exaggeration. More like, I don't like abusive practices and would prefer to eat humanely treated and humanely slaughtered animals. But abusive practices are also not a complete deal breaker for me. So there's a level of care there, but it's far below the care for humans.
And I do think that's a fairly normal and common moral framework, whether conscious or subconscious.
Nobody said that you have to care about animals in the same way as you care for humans. Nobody said that they're on the same level. You just literally said that you don't care about their suffering, which sounds insane to anyone.
You talk about "humane killing of animals without any necessity". Does "humane killing" sound humane to you? Humanely treated? Why do 99% of people claim they prefer "humanely treated" animals, when appr. 99% of all animal products come from factory farming? That's the opposite of humane. Nothing in the industry is humane. They all try to make money. I don't have to explain to you how you do that, I assume
It's not a common moral framework. But we don't have to discuss this any further. I see that you're not really open for that discussion.
Hey, you asked man.
A lot of vegans are environmentalists too, and so it caught my eye that you specificied beef. If you're interested in an easy way to dramatically drop your environmental impact relative to the effort, trying out plant milks can be a great way to go about it. The dairy and beef industries are heavily intertwined, and from an environmental standpoint, dairy milk stands head and shoulders above plant ones in terms of emissions, land usage, and water usage. I would say that plant milks offer a better experience than dairy milk even completely disregarding the ethics and the environment, so it could be worth your while.
You're correct! And I'm working on that. I still think plant milks in cereal tastes weird, but fuck it cereal is bad for you anyway. I'm mostly on plant based milks now.
Hey, that's really cool; I'm glad you have a concrete goal for yourself. If you ever have any questions about plant milks, feel free to drop us a line. I think most of us have a lot of experience with them. I think I'm covering most of my bases here:
I'll check out Almond Breeze, thanks! I do loooove the taste of oat milk in my coffee, but yeah it's weird in cereal.
Well, yes. That sounds reasonable at first.
But also, think of the broader public reaction, if governments started banning meat / animal products / whatever industries that exploit animals.
I do not think most people would be fine with a government mandated ban on those goods/practices.
Consider that we all used to be in your position.
What took you from not caring to caring?
Information, the same information those groups put on their signs when they protest
Like what? I'm wondering if there's something that would make me care.
Not the person you were talking to, but what took me from vegetarian to vegan was the documentary Dominion. I couldn't reconcile what was happening on the screen to the benefit I got from it. I felt appalled at myself.
I'm usually abysmal at sticking to personal change; this is probably one of the only ones that ever stuck with me.
I'm not vegan and won't ever be but can see that it does work just not to the extent a lot of them would like the world to. Like I said I'm not vegan however with the innovation of the meatless foods like the beyond burgers and such I'd be willing to try it IF I don't have to pay and if I like it then that's 1 more thing I'll do towards a better eco system even if microscopic. Then you have kids/teens who will see this and begin to lean towards being vegan as they wouldn't like what they see/learn.
At the end of the day even if it's a small audience they'll still reach people and change life styles which is ok