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The folks who say never Biden are right wing operatives. Perhaps unwittingly in some cases, but I suspect many of the loudest voices don't want to see any Democrat win and running down Biden is their best shot at that.
I don't want to see any Democrat or Republican or anyone win that is beholden to private entities rather than the people.
It's all a fuckin show and has been for over 100 years. It goes back further than that but at least we were mostly free of it prior to 1900.
You and me both. It's a sad state of affairs that it's not even an option. How we vote and the two party system is written into the fucking Constitution (not as such but the parties become inevitable) and we have to live with it. It's supposed to be a living document reacting to changes in the times but that's not possible right now.
I get not wanting either party. I'm certainly not beholden to either of them. But we are stuck. And we can fight one battle at a time to slowly move things in the direction they need to go even if it's one step forward and two back, or we can give up and just find a way to live with whatever chaos and injustice others choose for us. Because right now there just isn't another option. Maybe some day if we fight hard enough and we win often enough we can win better options for the future, but they probably won't be for us. The road is long and the progress is slow.
Ahh, yes. Just completely disregard any criticism of the Democratic Party as "right wing operatives." It couldn't possibly be that they abuse their position as the only other viable option in order to further their plutocratic goals, and the people who have been complaining about it for decades are simply tired of hearing "it's not the right time" ad nauseum.
You know what will convince people who barely managed to vote for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020 to vote against their conscience yet again? Knowing that they'll be instantly blamed anyway when the majority doesn't get their way? Insults and baseless accusations.
Criticize away. I'm no democrat and I have no love for them. I get into disagreements with those on the left about various things I disagree with. But at the end of the day I can work with democrats and I can't with fascists. Defending freedom and the constitution against tyranny is something I swore an oath to do, and I will vote for nothing but democrats as long as fascism looms here.
How is protecting the queer community, women's rights, and the civil rights of PoC, voting against your conscience exactly?
None of those are or have been under threat in decades and decades.
Nobody is entitled to special treatment so stop the nonsense.
Decades and decades, way to fuckin out your priv self that spectacularly. For those of us that actually live the experience, we've never stopped being under threat, least of all with folks like you getting so mad that we ask for even a modicum of ongoing protection.
Because I believe that protecting democracy is a prerequisite to protecting citizens, especially marginalized groups. The Democratic Party, to me, is a threat to democracy. Different from the Republican party, yes. And much less severe. But a threat nonetheless.
This isn't "both sides," the Republicans have 0% chance of ever getting my vote, period. The Democrats can earn my vote but choose not to. In my opinion, they are an active participant in the erosion of democracy in this country. They just have the benefit of only having to do it within their own party.
Is this in the general sense or are there specific policies/actions you could point me to as examples?
Two in particular:
The DNC has no interest in running an impartial and even-handed primary. It went so far as to argue in court that it was not bound by the language of its charter to run fair primaries. Since the Democratic primary is currently the only place that progressives can voice their political preferences, this practice effectively removes the right to political representation of anyone left of the party.
The Democratic Party engages in pied piper strategies, bolstering extremists within the Republican Party in order to increase their chances of winning the general (by promoting the "you have to vote D to avoid R" rhetoric that this thread started with). Specific to the current political climate, the DNC and the Hillary campaign promoted Trump in the 2016 Republican primary since they saw him as easier to beat than the rest of the field.
So they suppress voters to their left and intentionally radicalize the party and voters to their right.
Hmm ok fair enough actually, thanks
I could point back to 2016 DNC primaries as a perfect example. The vote of the average Democrat voter means jack shit. The caucus leaders and (I forget the position) leaders in the DNC for each zone/region are the only votes that matters. Quite literally how the DNC told the average Democrat voter, "go fuck yourself we're not putting in Bernie because he's not part of our globalist scheme"
The RNC isn't any better. Willfully tanking candidates that realize BOTH parties are playing for a team that is not for the People and their Rights and freedoms.
You believe, because you don't know for certain.
You think those people will be better protected under a republican admin?
Do you think what those people will go through under republican leadership is worth it so that the DNC "learns its lesson" whatever the flying fuck that's supposed to mean because people like you can't even be bothered with the primaries you claim to be so incensed about when you turn your nose up at protecting other people's rights.
Believe it or not democracy is actually not when the candidate with less votes gets forced into the nomination anyways because "trust me bro more people want him bro just ignore he got less votes bro!"
Believe it or not Vote Karen, us folks you're threatening to send back to the Republicans to be rounded up and tormented if not killed for another 4 years are not able to bring you the party's manager.
You believe "protecting democracy" whatever the fuck you think that means, comes ahead of protecting people's lives, and that's a position you can only have if it isn't your life in danger.
You objectively prefer us as dead bodies you can gesture to and shout "SEE!" as if it was some nebulous elite's fault that you refused to save us. You prefer us that way because dead bodies don't expect you to actually show your solidarity even when it's such a herculean strain as waiting in line for a day at most and filling some boxes out.
Be an ally, or quit moaning when the people you claim you're trying to help point out that you're trying to extort a negotiation out of them for something they have no control over because that seems more "revolutionary" to you than just being there to have it go your way in the first fucking place at the primary stage if you're willing to turn us over to the fucking gestapo over it.
Followed up by you conjuring up all sorts of things you claim I believe to argue against strawmen.
And by the way, I phrase things as "I believe" because that's what humans base their decisions on. None of us know anything 100%. I can recognize that we can work towards the same goal and have different beliefs about the best way to get there. I don't automatically assume that everyone who disagrees with my methods also disagree with my goals.
Yeah because you have the privilege to not be condemned to possible state sanctioned violence by that "difference in methods" fuckin' priv.
Hey, guess what? You aren't right about everything. Neither am I. I believe the system continuing as it is will result in more death and suffering than efforts to drag the Democrats left.
You need to learn to argue without accusing your opponent of ill intentions.
You need to shut the fuck up and listen to the people who'll be doing the dying and suffering, because those folks are tired of you deciding you know better for them.
Don't want to be called a priv, stop acting like a fuckin' priv.
https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
I strive for positive peace, which is not possible through the moderate Democratic party as it is. Voting for Biden simply because he isn't Trump, and insisting that that is the only way forward because it is an absence of tension, is not a good long term strategy. I'm not interested in arguing further unless you can actually argue rather than just spew insults.
Go ahead though, call MLK a "priv."
Well, who cares about a "threat to Democracy" when we're a Republic?
Shifting towards this "Democracy" has seen nothing but rampant devaluation of currency coupled with massive increase in cost of goods, housing, energy, etc. and loss of Rights and freedoms.
Do they not teach Civics in school anymore?
We should go back to tax-neutral/positive heads of household being the only ones voting as they have a vested interest in the success of this nation. I'll even leave out the land owning part since the "Democracy" chasers fucked most of us out of that one.
@MagicShel I know this is hard to understand, but genocide affects our decision making, and some of us would even prefer our country to fall to complete ruin than be aparty to it. Never again isn't "never again unless it would be politically expedient"
Do you understand what I mean? That there are lines that can never, ever be crossed?
Do you understand why I'd never be able to look in the mirror again after that?
If you think Trump is going to bring a halt to genocide you're delusional. Vote Trump in and the genocide will continue or escalate. The GOP will escalate persecution of your countrymen and will further dismantle our democracy.
All the shit Trump did, locking kids in cages, rampant corruption, constant stream of lies, bungled foreign policy, stochastic terrorism. None of that crosses the line for you.
Or is it that you're more about the symbolism of your vote than its real world effects?
@agent_flounder I'm not going to choose between two different far right genocidal monsters.
There's no rhetorical game here. What you're asking me to do is an evil my conscience won't bear, and yours will because of your moral cowardice.
Messy. Damnable. Pragmatism is hell, not cowardice. Trump is not a clay that can be worked on. He will go all in with what Israel is doing. With no alternative, if the lesser evil saves a life I'll shake hands with it and kiss it on either cheek.
Good grief. Obviously acting in bad faith here rather than actually engaging and discussing. Hopefully few people in battleground states fall for all the people pushing this line on social media.
Fellow citizens, I don't have to tell you genocide is disgusting. We need to be demanding of our reps and president to put a stop to the genocide here and Sudan both.
Hopefully nobody has to be told that the US has a long history of horrific foreign policy decisions (look up Kissinger or various coups we initiated or wars we started) that kill people by the millions either directly or indirectly. It's up to us peons to fight this, fight the corruption that runs rampant, and fight to make our democracy work more for us than the Uber rich and powerful. Tale as old as time. It took decades to get us here and it will take decades to unfuck things.
But we are all fucked if if the GOP is allowed to implement Project 2025. It will be even more destructive to our institutions and democracy than the first Trump Presidency.
So you think that the default is no genocide? No genocide is not an option here. Our realistic options are:
A) genocide
B) genocide + fascism at home
Not choosing defaults to B
@kool_newt I'm deontologically committed to not being personally aparty to genocide, and your commitment to a utilitarian calculus where genocide is a given, is exactly why I've made that choice.
Ok, and I'm saying by not participating you're effectively choosing not only genocide but fascism. As Rush says
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
https://www.rush.com/songs/freewill/
@kool_newt oh I made my choice. I hope some day you will realize that you have too and what it means got you.
I'm secure in my knowledge that my ideology isn't so radical I shoot myself in the foot.
@kool_newt I really wanted to let this go, but what the fuck is wrong with you that you think "I will not support genocide" is radical?
You toothless amoral cretin. Go back to your servile obsequence to whatever politicians your betters decide for you and leave me alone.
I'm trying to get a dunce to understand that no genocide isn't the default when you forfeit your vote.
@kool_newt so you agree, a vote is an active choice that reflects on you as a human being?
Yes, a vote is an active choice that reflects on you as a human being My vote is a reflection of my wish to minimize the harm done while I work to change the world outside of electoral politics. My vote does not express my wishes. Not voting because I think Biden is supporting genocide when the other option is just as bad or worse I feel would reflect my desire to absolve myself of guilt above all.
I know you think I'm a Biden loving neo-lib that wants Demcrats in power. I hate Biden, I hate Democrats. I have no fantasy that Democrats are going to solve any real problems. But you know who I hate more? And who will also not solve any real problems and in fact will almost certainly make many problems much worse? And also who will make my actual desire to change the world via activism and mutual aid more difficult and risky?
Trump.
I vote for Biden because that is a vote against Trump, not because I support Biden.
We should be on the same team, the team with empathy that wants to make the world a better place -- and we should fight the other side, the side with little empathy that wants to exploit others for gain.
We aren't committing genocide. We oppose genocide in Ukraine, and we would allow it under Trump. The fact that you'd be fine letting this country burn doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We can't help anyone in that state. And a lot of us want to help.
@MagicShel We're making it much much much much worse, providing direct financial and military aid to a country actively slaughtering tens of thousands and displacing millions to facilitate ethnic cleansing.
It's not that trump wouldn't be worse, just they supporting Biden is totally and completely unconscionable. And to do so sacrifices a piece of your soul.
Refusing to stand up to fascism is unconscionable to me. My grandfather fought a war against it overseas and I'm not about to fail him here.
Then the Democratic Party should consider starting. Instead, they've unfailingly pretended that fascists are honorable people interested in serious governance that we should just compromise with in order to get concessions.
No disagreement.
@MagicShel voting for a genocidal monster isn't standing up to fascism. There is a rot deep in your soul if you'll let yourself fall that far.
Biden isn't a genocidal monster and those words make you sound pretty unhinged. The fact that one of our close allies has been committing genocide is certainly a problem that we need to address but letting Trump win isn't going to do Palestinians any favors.
@MagicShel that's the difference in our understanding there.
You are what you do. And what he has done is send billions of dollars and two carrier groups to back up, by far, the biggest crime against humanity in the 21st century, already beating Iraq and blowing anything else out of the water.
There's no excuse I'll accept for that
Those carrier groups are there to prevent escalation into a war that would be terrible for everyone including the Palestinians. I can't believe anyone needs that explained.
The dollars frankly I don't understand, but I do know that if we want to be able to influence Israel we either need to have a carrot or a stick. Dollars are our soft power. I don't know the secret agreements and back door deals that were made - I fully agree that from the outside it looks bad, and the government owes us explanations. Though you've already said you don't care what the reasoning is or what those dollars bought, so I guess maybe you aren't owed that explanation because what would it matter anyway? But the rest of us are owed an explanation of why we sent them a bunch of money. Maybe Israel threatened to carpet bomb the whole area if they didn't get security guarantees, and maybe it's worth a little of money to deescalate and give things a chance to calm down. Maybe not, my point is the reasoning matters at least to some of us.
What I do know is America has supported Israel and ignored the Palestinians for decades. This isn't something Biden did any differently then any other American President. The difference is many democrats are actively and vocally supporting the Palestinians. And Rep. Talib has influence with this administration, but under Trump she would be powerless.
Biden isn't perfect. America isn't perfect. We have done awful things and we will again because that's a fact of geopolitics. Hamas did an awful thing. Israel did many awful things. There are no good guys in this story. But I think we will do far fewer awful things under Biden than Trump. Plus, we need to show the GOP that cozying up to fascists will never help them. Maybe if we send Trump packing hard, they will get the message, but if Trump wins they never will and fascism will be an accepted part of the American political spectrum.
WW2 had far reaching impact decades later and I grew up in it's shadow. Everything when I was growing up impressed upon me that there is nothing worse than fascism - Star Wars, Indiana Jones, even the Blues Brothers. I saw the effects it had on veterans, and I would spare the next generation the effects of it - particularly the effects of being the evil that we sacrificed so much to defeat. I'm not going to let Trump win while there is anything I can do about it and voting for Biden is about the least violent thing that can be done to stop him.