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John Fetterman says he'll 'never understand' progressives who refuse to support Joe Biden
(www.businessinsider.com)
this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2023
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politics
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So you like Trump for 2024, then? Noted.
Depends on where they are. If they're in a liberal stronghold like California, it's probably fine. If they're deep in the red like Florida, also fine.
But voting third party in a swing state is definitely not pragmatic.
which, if yall voting third party in some "safe state" and the candidate doesn't even support some kind of electoral reform, what are yall doing. this whole "swing state" thing is 100% bullshit and virtually any of 10,000 plans to fix it will work, at least send a message.
Well, the problem with politics is that it basically renders a ton of wants into like 5 choices at most, and only 2 if you really want to win.
Perfect summary of how fucked the two party system and partisan identity in the US is. "Oh you don't want to get behind a party that supports the Palestinian genocide? Trump lover!" You basically have a moderate rainbow capitalist center right party, and a fashy culture war right party, they have the same donors and corrupt capital directing their policies though. The vote is like picking the aesthetic you want to see things degrade under.
Biden taking the L for pulling out of Afghanistan was the best thing he's done. Obama and Trump didn't want it and he finally went though with it.
These two things can be true at the same time:
Feel free to vote for West if you live in, say, California. But in a contested state, a vote for West is a vote for Trump (or his replacement as Führer).
There is an actual, material difference between the center-right big-business party (the Democrats) and the fascist party. If you don't believe me, go ask a gay schoolteacher from Florida.
You can't blame 3rd party / nonvoters for the faults of republican voters. Mentality like that is why we are stuck with point number 1.
Do you want to Make America Florida?
Who you or I vote for is not going to stop a second January 6th, it isn't going to change the plans in project 2025, the question is no longer about duely elected politicians, there is a high chance that Trump could be barred from running due to his actions on Jan 6th, but that doesn't change angry confused people's minds.
If you don't want to make america Florida convince a Trumper he's bad don't attack people who already know it.
Weren't you just talking about 3rd party/nonvoters? Because if they're truly seeing fascism on the rise and then not voting against it they're very much not the people who truly "know Trump is bad".
I was, voteing 3rd party is voting against fascism, unless trump ends up running 3rd party then it could go either way. There is more than just us and them, there are people inbetween, and treating them like the enemy is not how we get out of this mess.
It literally isn't, because it has no impact on whether a fascist gets elected.
So why aren't you out in Ukraine planning a covert mission to assassinate putin? By not fighting him you have no impact on if a fascist takes over the world.
Its a stupid argument it's not just yes or no.
you are playing into the fascists game by ignoring the other possibilities.
I'm not claiming I'm helping to eliminate the Russian fascist. You're claiming your vote is helping to prevent it domestically.
I'm claiming that you can't blame people who didn't vote for fascism for fascism.
You are claiming that people who don't vote how you want them to are helping to bring forth fascism.
following that logic by not fighting in Ukraine you too are giving rise to domestic fascism in that putin could one day become a fascist dictator of America if not stopped.
by not stopping him you too support fascism in America.
Edit: Don't let billionaires divide us, you are better than that, Republicans are better than that, I believe you want the best for america just like they do, you are both just confused on how to do it and who the actual enemies of democracy are.
Because of the shitty structure of the voting system, people who "didn't vote for fascism" can, in fact, be supporting the fascist party.
This is a mathematical consequence of the specific type of shitty that our voting system is.
As a supporter of better voting systems, you can realize that.
And then, as a voter, you can look at your district and you can look at the candidates, and you can fucking vote tactically in the way that will, in fact, mathematically, provably reduce the chance of electing a fucking Nazi.
Right now, under the voting system we actually have, if you're in a purple state and vote for Cornel West, if you are mathematically literate you know you're helping elect Trump.
That's just true. Simply true. It's a consequence of the shitty voting system, but it's a real consequence. That's actually how it will happen. It's not about how you feel in your heart. It's about whether police are going to drag LGBT+ kids away from their supportive parents. It's about whether birthright citizenship is retroactively abolished. It's about whether the January 6 perpetrators get not only pardoned, but appointed to office.
You know the choice you have. It's a shitty choice, because you and I both know that the first-past-the-post voting system creates shitty choices.
But still ... don't vote for fascism.
Fight the system, the blm protests did help, their only failing wa people didn't keep up with it the power of the people is not in voting it is collective action in the streets.
You know what is bullshit? Money. A $100 bill and a $1 are the same physical thing. Why should a $100 bill be worth 100 times more than a $1 bill? It’s all the same thing.
But society uses money, I have to play by those rules. I can’t pay five lunch with $1 if they says it’s $20. I have to work in the system even if it sucks.
Become a hermit
Sure I can. Every eligible voter who did not vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 shares partial blame for Trump winning. Less than people who voted for Trump, but more then none at all.
Personally I would put more blame on the democrats for not fielding a better candidate that could have beaten trump not the people who didn't vote for a shit candidate
That’s too many layers of assumptions. I can tell you for a fact that not voting for Hillary lead directly to Trump winning in 2020. We have no idea how another candidate would have done running against him in the general.
Well first yes we do based on Biden winning 2020.
Secondly Voting for trump directly lead to trump winning. At best not voting for Hillary indirectly Lead to trump winning.
No you cannot compare running against Trump in 2016 to running against him in 2020. I knew how terrible he was in 2016, but a lot of people had to see it to believe it. Even a few weeks can flip an election. Hillary very well could have won without the idiotic weekend announcement before Election Day of meaningless information by the FBI.
I agree that a lot of people had to see trump as president before they knew he was a bad president.
i just disagree with blaming people who didn't vote for trump for trump being elected.
hell I kinda disagree with blaming trump supporters for trumps actions. the people I know that like him are old, uneducated, rural, or deeply Christian, they don't know how to think critically. They don't question the news they get and they only get news from a single source that tells them they are right. they are in a cult, and in a cult the cultists are victims. the leaders are the ones to blame.
Fox News, oan, tucker Carlson, Donal trump are the people to blame for trumps presidency, Jan 6th and project 2025 not the people who voted for him, and certainly not the people who didn't vote for him.
It has nothing to do with being uneducated. Kindness doesn’t require a college degree. Trump has always been a bully, and he ran on being a bully. Someone was ok with that is ok to be blamed imo. I put some blame not all.
That's the tricky part of a cult, you get convinced to do things you wouldn't normally do. The trump supporters I know raised their kids to be better, but were just vulnerable enough to be convinced that Trump would bully the bullies and protect the weak, which was a complete lie.
I empathize and hope for them to have the strength to let go of their brain washing and work to fix what has been broken.
That’s fine if they admit they were wrong and voted against him in 2020, great. If not, it’s not my responsibility to reprogram them. They are adults and are responsible for their own actions. If they want to change I welcome it. If you acknowledge the blame and correct it, we’re good.
I get not wanting to put yourself out there to try and help, and it's really hard not to just be a dick to people you disagree with.
but if the question is how do we stop fascism the answer isn't blame them or make them feel guilty about it, it's reaching out and helping them out of it. they are people and people are stupid stubborn afraid and in need of support from other people.
Sorry no. Reaching and out talking to the Nazi’s didn’t work.
It usually doesn't work the first time, ya gotta keep at it. as stone temple pilots say, take time with a wounded hand.
You’ll be in line at whatever the modern day gas chambers are with rhetoric like that. They literally tried overthrowing the government.
What would you do, to prevent them from gassing me? Put them in their own concentration camps?
I would criminally charge and jail the leaders, trump Roger stone and the heratage foundation, deprogram the followers, just like with any cult. They think they are saving america, just like anyone who says vote D no matter what.
Vote. Don't let them get any more wins. Don't say things that spread apathy among voters. etc.
Voting is a start, but what about project 2025? What of Roger stone and the Republicans, repeated (and depending on your views of the bush v gore election and the brooks brothers riot, successful) attempts to preempt duly elected presidents from going into office?
It doesn't take a majority to put a dictator in power. That's why converting, calming and understanding republican voters is so important, if they don't show up to the capital then the gop can't use them as an excuse to seize control and bypass the vote.
Everyone who did not vote for Vermin Supreme is also responsible for letting Trump win.
Do you think before you type?
I don’t count pointless hypotheticals.
Holy fuck is this insane. While it was still dumb, complaining about lack of differentiation between neoliberalism with social conservative tendencies and neoliberalism with socially liberal tendencies could at least masquerade as a cogent argument, but "fashy culture war" isn't just another stylistic draping on neoliberalism, it's storming school boards, skinheads marching through cities, and federally directed jackboots kidnapping protesters.
That's all happening now while Biden is in office though, and the police work for the state. Weapons are also being sold to fascists and extremists who repress moderates all over the world. The difference is under neoliberalism domestically, as long as people are equally represented, and the visible oppression is externalized, the structure is strengthened and remains. The Republican model says some deserve to be worse off based on their identity, which is in practice an opportunity for exploitation of all, it's a way to blame systemic stresses on an internalized other. The stresses remain in either case and the system continues to degrade.
Neoliberalism has already had its crisis and essentially died, in the sense that it's not believed in anymore but still guides institutions.
Where are the DHS (or other federal agents) kidnapping protesters? They didn't just randomly decide to show up in Portland and they weren't just randomly chosen from among available federal forces. They were sent there by Trump because they were a young organization with the least inertia to resist the fascist turn.
As to the other two, I suppose it's true it's still happening, no one solved the problem of evil, but they aren't being called "fine people" and sheltered by the head of the executive branch. Zero chance the Proud Boys go to prison under a fascist president and more than likely they will be pardoned (and given a green light) if that happens. The idea that a fascist president doesn't make fascism markedly worse is insanity.
All the flowery words about international relations are just avoiding answering the question of actual fascism, while also basically ignoring that fascist leaders were rising at the same time and supporting each other. What bullshit fake leftism to just hand wave away the rise of fascism, both at home and abroad.
Feds are notorious for harassing and threatening effective protestors, and the police and military in the US are full of organized fascists already, that's just getting worse in any partisan scenario. International relations is actual fascism, because it's all about protecting the interests of private US companies who do business in countries with less regulations and labor standards, and forcing those countries to remain friendly to US interests in this manner. So the oppression resulting from this system is externalized and hidden from the American collective conscious which is more involved with a culture war that doesn't really change the status quo system but gives it moral justification and context. Results are incidents like Coca Cola hiring death squads in Columbia to harass and murder labor organizers, or just exploiting entire workforces. The military industrial complex side of this is basically death for any political organizations left of center in any country the US has interests in, the story of the last half century. Pertinent example, Biden pulling out of Afghanistan ended decades of involvement that basically started with providing insane amounts of weapons to Mujahideen Islam extremists and warlords which culminated in 9/11. Iran is the exception but the US is materially very friendly to repressive Islamic states for these economic reasons, those states aren't inclusive by any stretch of the imagination and actually murder so-called sexual deviants. As long as it's not happening in the US neoliberal Democrat supporters can feel like their hands are clean of fascism the system they support inflicts. So I would flip around that last paragraph and say this is a material reality entirely avoided by US Democrat progressives.
It helps to think of it in pragmatic terms of what your vote does, versus whether or not you fully support X or Y. It is undeniable that given the stupid electoral system we were born into, that voting third party effectively supports whichever mainstream candidate you don’t want to win.
All the rest of the time, whether in primaries or public forums like this, you argue and vote for what/who you really want.
But once you hit the general election, it is essentially cast in stone that either the R or D candidate will win.
We need ranked choice voting so that candidates care about what the people really want, versus just getting more votes than one specific other person.
What if you don't want either to win and see the trend of both parties turning more to the right since Reagan and locked in a death spiral. Corporate tax rates are as low as ever, both parties support the military industrial complex and police state, both support the Palestinian genocide, neither party wants to get rid of Citizens United and Super PACs (regulated less than charities) now control and appropriate political action for corporate interests, neither party supports public healthcare. Like yeah the degradation may happen slower under Democrat but they haven't shown signs of turning their backs against the corporate interests ruining the country/world.
If you don’t want either one to win, there is no way for you to legally make that happen.
So if you accept that is true, and you have a preference among the two parties, that is where pragmatism suggests voting against the greater evil.
But if you honestly have little to no preference, then you won’t care about the so-called consequences of voting third party, and can do whatever.
I mean obviously you can always do whatever you want. This is just the game theory you’re thinking that means we need to change our voting system before the two-party lock-in would even start to loosen.
Pragmatism would suggest I spend my efforts being politically active in other ways rather than dedicate it to a bipartisan death spiral. I'm active on the labor, municipal, and environmental front, and none of it is online.
That sounds awesome!
I was just talking about the vote decision in the booth though. Actually helping change along is arguably even more important than voting in the first place, because each individual involved has a larger effect, and one that they care about much more than choosing the lesser evil.
You like Trump for 2024. I've noted it. It's in my notes! You're in trouble now!