this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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[–] Ginjutsu@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Is the USA a “functioning” state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?

I hope you realize that this is an incredibly privileged take. The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesn't even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Pot's Cambodia, or (to a less extreme extent) Maduro's Venezuela. To compare what a US citizen deals with on a daily basis due to capitalism to what a citizen of any of those countries had to go through is very reductive and may be perceived as disrespectful to many who had to live those experiences.

[–] Definitely_me@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 1 year ago

The United States, for all it's faults, is the pretty side of capitalism.you don't even need to look to the most poor countries to see a standard of living that makes even directly post ww2 soviet union look like a great place.

[–] proletariatnerd@iusearchlinux.fyi 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesn’t even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Pot’s Cambodia

I have some fellas from Detroit that would disagree.

[–] Cowbob45@beehaw.org 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My dude you need to stop right now before you end up saying that genocide isn't that bad. Because that's what Pol Pot did.

[–] proletariatnerd@iusearchlinux.fyi 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Genocide and pol pot is terrible. So is the USA.

[–] cryball@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Killing millions and being dysfunctional are in a different realm of terrible. I'm sorry, but how did you come to the conclusion that they are even comparable?

[–] fae@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

hm i wonder if theres any capitalist countries with a history of committing genocide..

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Every genocide can be bad at all the same time. You know?

[–] fae@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

yea i know. genocide is never a good thing. no matter who does it. whats ur point?

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not sure about your specific views, but my point is that the genocides carried out by the USSR and by China and by other 'Communist' states are bad, and that they don't become any less bad as a consequence of Capitalism also having carried out genocides.

[–] fae@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i fully agree and im sorry if it came across differently.

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No you're good, just trying to answer

[–] fae@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

lol oki. i decided to stop arguing with the tankies here. i dont wanna legitimize it as a valid position to discuss about.

dont waste too much time on these fuckers, look after urself too :3

[–] cryball@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm all ears. Please give me a list so I can expand my understanding.

[–] fae@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

oh dear here we go. off the top of my head, there is of course, canada, usa (native americans), israel (palestinians), nazi germany (jewish people, PoC, queer people, communists, and a whole bunch of others)(it mightve called itself socialist but was still very much capitalist), china (uyghur people) (also might call itself communist but they literally have billionaires and a fucking stock market, cmon)

[–] cryball@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I view nazi germany and china quite a bit different from real capitalist societies. Simply having a stock market doesn't mean the markets are free to function as they please.

I also tend to disagree with canada and usa being genocidial at this point in time. For sure they did horrific things, but comparing usa to nazi germany or current day china is delusional, as the US country's government is not actively killing a part of their own population.

What rubs me the wrong way in these conversations is mentioning capitalism as a system that commits the genocide. Both germany and china are/were state driven, and as such the markets didn't really have anything to do with the actions. Instead the genocide is driven by the government that is/was authoritarian, and as such the markets aren't driving the killing.

The one country I agree with being a free market and genocidial is Israel.

[–] fae@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Simply having a stock market doesn't mean the markets are free to function as they please.

are u saying that government intervention in the "free market" = communism?

as a reminder, communism is a stateless, classless, and moneyless society.

also, state intervention in the market does not make a country no longer capitalist, they all have that.

but comparing usa to nazi germany or current day china is delusional

i was just giving u a list of genocidal capitalist countries, i wasnt comparing them with each other.

many countries are built on genocide thanks to colonialism. canada is one of them, and it has not changed its course

[–] cryball@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

are u saying that government intervention in the “free market” = communism?

I mostly agree with the rest of the points, but I have to comment on this. I'm not implying that china is communist. AFAIK I did not state that in my comments. What I am saying is that government intervention in free markets is antithetical to capitalism. That doesn't make it communism, socialism, or any other flavor of purism, but still disqualifies the country from being capitalist.

[–] fae@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I'm not implying that china is communist. AFAIK I did not state that in my comments.

yea i figured. just wanted to make sure 👍

government intervention in free markets is antithetical to capitalism.

all the countries i mentioned have/had corporate taxes

still disqualifies the country from being capitalist.

oof so by that definition, are there any capitalist countries right now? has it ever been tried and succeeded so far? if any intervention in the free market makes a country no longer capitalist, i mean.

Sry but this is just bullshit. Nearly every country does that and they are capitalist. Its not antiethical, its needed to stabelise capitalism (even in the USA there are ISO norms, food and drug administration, tax differences for different corporations etc. Pp.)

[–] Sunforged@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So because the genocide the US did was in the past it doesn't count?

[–] cryball@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It counts for sure. It's just different to call current US genocidial in comparison to stating that US has committed genocide. Kinda like germany is not a genocidial country, but 80 years ago it was. The government now isn't the same that committed the atrocities.

I'm probably off topic, but in left leaning communities I see a lot of references to the US as a genocidial regime. My above explanation should clear up somewhat why I feel that it's a bit far fetched. Eg. the current state of things in the US doesn't count as one IMO.

[–] Sunforged@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We have a government that spends billions of dollars on the military industrial complex with what amounts to no opposition politically. Having spent that money we then go on to justify the weapons being deployed around the world.

If Isreal is a genocidal country, how is America not for enabling Isreal? There is no distinction in my mind. It's the same capitalist interests at play.

[–] Jean_le_Flambeur@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I understand where you are coming from, but maybe u understand our point of view, that you don't need the genocides and war that bad anymore, when past genocides and wars already have made you the mightiest force in the world.

If your on top and have mostly money, its easy to screw others with said money, a fight you'll always win, and pointing the blame, when they switch to the same strategies, you used to get in the position of power where you are now.

[–] cryball@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago

I don't disagree with people saying that US is doing questionable stuff. What rubs me the wrong way is that the current meddlings of US are being compared to what is being done in ukraine right now. They are fundamentally different levels of evil.

[–] candlebury@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

My country, Guatemala, for a start. With tacit US approval even.

For the person dying of hunger is the same. But yeah, killing millions is bad and is something America NEVER did, right?

Implying the us is better than Cambodia because Cambodia committed genocide is very weird, considering that the US did so too

[–] Ginjutsu@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

You can't be serious...

[–] Jean_le_Flambeur@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)
  1. Im not from USA, and from my point of view its mich worse than most other countries (no healthcare, no independend courts, murder sprees in schools nearly every day, opression of half of the world (a half of them just to get more oil to destroy the planet faster), one of 3 of the biggest war-pushers in whole earth, polutes and destroys earth mode than every other country per citizens, etc. PP.)

  2. capitalism mostly opresses and profits from people out of the country to Funktion. if its Bad in Venezuela or Cuba or Afghanistan, or even early russia, thats at least partly fault of US.

  3. Venezuela is not communism, China isnt, russia isnt. Most of them have failed, at least partly because caputalist societys atack them and stop a as soon as they are born and they can't form a stable democracy. Before reading Marx, your bashing of communism isnt worth anything, as you clearly don't understand what you are talking about. We never had communism, and some would say not even socialism. You sound like you don't even know the difference, since you keep talking about communism, which is a utopian society after humanity has stopped a lot of bad habits and has learned to live without working against each other in competition and working together instead, which arises maybe after generations of workig socialism, which we clearly didn't have.

4.you exactly prove my point. I dont agree with tankies either, but the number of people around here blindly copying capitalist propaganda while understanding nothing they bash about is too damm high.

[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You have a warped view of USA that doesn't reflect reality. You're seeing it through the lens of sensationalist news media and hyperventilating social media posts.

The actual reality for Americans is that it's a vast, beautiful land with an amazing spectrum of various experience. Violent crime is rare overall, and most Americans have never seen or heard any gun violence in person. Health care is available to pretty much everyone, even if you don't have money. We have state-run healthcare facilities that the poor can make use of like county health departments.

My life in the USA is great, because I don't live in a big city. I live on my own land, in a nice house that I own, and I'm just middle class income level. It's pretty easy to accomplish if you choose a low cost of living area rather than a big metropolis or suburb thereof.

[–] Cynosure@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Well of course the standard of living in the imperial core is higher than the countries it has exploited or destabilized. A lot of American wealth is the fruit of imperialism.

[–] robinn@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

This take, rather than being incredibly privileged, is just stupid. I love the examples used. Pol Pot's Cambodia (which hasn't existed for a while) was propped up by the U.S. Maduro's Venezuela has hardship due to western sanctions (including from the U.S.), which a U.N. report found:

  1. Shrank government revenue by 99% (the report acknowledges the majority of government funds were spent on universal services including free housing) [p. 5].
  2. “had a devastating effect on the people, especially the most vulnerable – such as women, children, the elderly, people with disabilities or life-threatening or chronic diseases, and indigenous communities” [p. 5].
  3. In 2020 alone prevented ~2.6 million people from receiving blood reagents and deprived at least another 123,000 others of blood transfusions [p. 8].
  4. Drastically increased poverty and infant mortality [p. 8].
  5. Prohibited the purchase of certain antibiotics and other treatments which resulted in the prevention of ~180,000 surgeries [p. 8].
  6. Created a reported 50-70% drop in public health workers [p. 10].
  7. Dropped internet coverage in the country from 50-90% of territory to 10% [p. 12].

The U.S. is an imperialist country that drives up oppression in numerous nations, and it is silly and ignorant to talk of its effects in isolation alone. You seemingly ignored the whole "invading other countries for monetary interests part of OP's comment (and the millions killed in Iraq and Afghanistan thereof, for instance). This is the only way that domestic rights in the U.S. have been able to surpass other nations. Even still, there are destitute groups in the U.S. which lack rights and the means of subsistence, and to downplay this by pointing to worse conditions in other nations which the U.S. directly caused is laughable and childish.