Was literally discussing this last night. China built a whole high speed rail network across its country for £300 billion and we're £100 billion in and don't even have a single train available. It's actually insane.
this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2023
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The land cost alone for hs2 runs into the billions, it’s just very expensive to do.
Do you believe the land costs in France, Spain, Germany, China and Japan weren't expensive?
China is not. The CCP can just seize the land and force you to accept a pittance in compensation.
I genuinely can't continue this conversation in good conscience given the fact that I don't have sources. I can only go off of some YouTube documentaries I watched once upon a time where the government made a valuation on some land, sent in some archeologists and rehoused residents taking them rural living conditions with an outhouse to newer houses with toilets. In each case I saw the government deemed the projects more valuable than the people's land/houses and time has proven them right as they have high speed rail and economic growth in all areas the rail network extends to and beyond.
You only mentioned china, where they don’t report on land costs because all land is owned by the state but yes I do believe land compensation is much less in china, not least because HS2 land compensation is significantly above market rate in what is probably the most expensive rural land in the world. Also; an authoritarian regime with only superficial regard for the health and well-being of their workers, that are paid almost nothing is certain to be cheaper. Suggesting otherwise is banal.
Edited to add Troll alert!
Source?
I’ve only got two decades of civil engineering experience in Europe china and now the uk to draw on. I can’t provide a source for the absence of Chinese reporting on land costs because you can’t prove a negative. Although it should be blatantly obvious that comparing the cost of building something in the uk to the cost in china is simply pointless. Here’s a link to a high speed train collision in china that killed a heap of people: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision And another one: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/high-speed-train-derailment-china/ … and a link to construction labour deaths https://clb.org.hk/en/content/china’s-most-dangerous-industry-getting-more-dangerous
The point being that china has a very different equation when they go about doing things to here in the uk.
Frankly I shouldn’t have to do this for you.
amtrak derails all the time
You're supposed to be providing sources about how the land was forcefully purchased at a low and unfair price. Not that trains derail.
As I stated, china don’t publish that information and it doesn’t take a genius to work it out. Troll.
When my beloved Arsenal built the Emirates, people said that they were low-balled. That claim is part and parcel with any forced possession. However asking you to prove that the valuations were low isn't asking a lot.
Obviously blocking you doesn’t work otherwise I wouldn’t see this nonsense. I’m not your personal Fucking google assistant.
You've never been challenged on things you say before?
That's not really comparable. China bulldozes through land with little regard for the societal or environmental impact. The UK is a place of natural beauty and has laws against doing that. It's right that we have proper surveys and planning permissions needed for this sort of thing, in my opinion!
Not sure why people are downvoting you, you're right. Checks and balances cost money, and in broad terms we're right to have those checks and balances. Maybe we need to reduce the burden slightly but our approach isn't totally wrong.
Even the chaotic Spanish have managed to build a decent high speed rail network. While they don't have the population density of the south east of England, they seem to be much more organised. Perhaps it's really Britain that's chaotic, certainly when it comes to infrastructure projects that aren't for cars?
Spain is basically empty outside of the larger cities, and property prices are often very low, so it is different.
The Netherlands is perhaps a better example. Very high population density, technical challenges due to a lot of reclaimed land, high property prices.
If they can manage it...
The Netherlands has plenty of normal rail, but actually hardly any high speed. Same problems...
"Problems". The Dutch government doesn't WANT to spend the money.
property prices are often very low
HAHAHAHAHAHA now that's a good one
?
Don't believe me, have a look for yourself:
Valencia, Murcia... it's quite easy to find a house for under 10k. You'll have to renovate it, but still.
I can find a house without renovating for under 10k in bumfuck England too, does that make property in the UK cheap?
Instead of saying “Valencia or Murcia” why don't you go have a look where people there actually want to live, especially all the British “expats”, like say, Benidorm? How's finding something bigger than a matchbox for under 10k there going for ya?
Instead of saying “Valencia or Murcia”
Erm.... Valencia is the third largest city in Spain.
Here's a perfectly nice flat in the centre of Madrid, no renovation required, less than 100k, near a metro station, 15 minutes to the centre of Madrid:
https://www.idealista.com/inmueble/97370404/
I look forward to you finding me a similar flat in the middle of London.
why don't you go have a look where people there actually want to live, especially all the British “expats”, like say, Benidorm?
Because most Spanish people don't live in a small tourist trap, and don't want to live in a small tourist trap, just because it happens to be popular with foreigners.
Also, when building a rail network, it's unlikely that you'll have to build most of it in fucking Benidorm. LOL
Not defending anyone's position, but even Italy managed to build one. I think costs were around 30+ billions.
I don't even know what to say to this. You have inherent biases and that's fair, but you should try and address them internally rather than just posting them. To suggest that China doesn't do proper surveys and just bulldozes through land without regard for societal or environmental impact sounds racist AF.
France has 3000 kilometres of high speed rail compared to our 100.
I’ve worked as a civil engineering consultant in china, comparing how the deliver a major rail project to here in the uk is frankly moronic. It isn’t bias, it’s fact
Well considering they've actually delivered their rail projects 🤷🏾♂️
Let's put it this way: Any HS2 that is not connected to the HS1 is a stupid idea from the beginning.
Do you really imagine people coming from the EU wanting to drag all their stuff through the f-ing Tube to reach the connecting bullet train to the north? Heck, this is already a pain in the ass with the crappy normal trains in the UK. I once needed to go from Hastings to Cambridge by train, and vividly remember having to walk between Kings Cross and Kings Cross Themselink (and back) with a load of luggage and a handicapped wife.
The HS1-HS2 link would've been great, had HS1 been built to terminate at the underground King's Cross station that never ended up being built. As is it is, it doesn't really go together nicely. But also the bigger problem is with the immigration and security theatre required to go through the tunnel, meaning you either have to change trains or have all of that at every other station that the trains would call at in the UK, which isn't really feasible. If we could reduce (or remove) these requirements that would be great but we've been moving in the opposite direction.
That said, the main point of HS2 is to move the existing long distance services (which don't mesh well with slower trains, reducing capacity) off of our existing mainlines, creating a lot of capacity for more local and freight services across the country.
that would be great but we’ve been moving in the opposite direction.
Well, maybe the UK will return to civilisation before HS2 is finished...
Wheelchair = luggage trolley.
The looks I'd get trolleying around my dear mum in her chair, absolutely laden with luggage or bags. I can only assume people thought I was some kind of monster doing that to an elderly lady, when in actual fact she was the one who would buy too much or insist on carrying it all.
Not that this would have helped in your case. IME trains are not wheelchair accessible. In theory they are, but when you turn up on the day, the lift's not working or you need to take 5 sets of stairs to get a connection, so that you end up having to take another train to a different station in the hope of their lift actually working, to take a cab to the station you were just at. Never again, basically.
@Noit Funny how we never see the same reports for motorways — that do exactly the same thing!
All sorts of standards are being applied to HS2 that don't get applied to a road that length, from cost per mile, to blowouts, to land acquisition, to animal habitat, to community consultation … and just general media scrutiny.
@Noit Britain isn't able to do high-speed rail?
Britain struggles to achieve any project of scale. Just look at our lack of success in building nuclear power stations.
We have one high speed rail link already, HS1. It goes from London to the channel tunnel.
This article is about HS2, that would go north.
@vext01 Perhaps what I mean is that the British are *now* unable to build projects of scale
Maybe not with all the other stuff going on...
If you think that's bad, wait till you hear about the US... Only one small part that hits 150mph (240km/h) on a 50mi (80km) section. For a country that's got more land area that Europe....
Do they mean unachievable for the budget?
Yes. Basically saying more money or less scope, pick one.