Redhat is honestly turning into bizarro Google. 🤦🏻♂️
this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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Just make it opt in, what's the big problem?
[deleted]
I don't buy this excuse. Just make it "opt", meaning neither option is the default. You have to choose "Yes, contribute diagnostic and bug data to Fedora (recommended)" or "No, keep my data private" before you can continue. Put a big "more info" link to documentation on what is collected, when, and who gets it, and how it's used.
It somewhat under-represents those who value privacy most and over-represents those who want to help Fedora with their usage data, but I argue that's a good thing.
You can just ask with an intrusive pop up first time after installation so everyone will always see. If ppl still opt-out... Idk... Maybe we respect it.
the people that install fedora on their home computers are already power users.
make this proposition to RTM or volume vendors, not the people that went out of their way to choose your product.
[deleted]
The check marks are enabled so that makes it opt out. User interaction is needed to disable it, that makes it opt out. By default, you are opted in
[deleted]
Opt out is not acceptable under any circumstances. It's not your data. It's your users'.
Sending a single bit back without an explicit, uncoerced opt in should be illegal.
The problem with opt-in is that it isn't a good way to get a good sample size. It's very self-selecting. There are ways of collecting telemetry while being privacy-respecting, but whether RedHat is properly anonymizing this user data is a different matter.
It doesn't matter what the tradeoffs are. The data does not and cannot belong to you.
There is no way of collecting telemetry while respecting privacy*. The pure fact that you're collecting anything the user didn't explicitly consent to is an unacceptable violation. Anonymization doesn't mean you aren't taking data that isn't yours.
*edit: without opt in. The acceptable way to do it is to make your ask, make the user make one choice or the other, and respect it.
There is no way of collecting telemetry while respecting privacy*.
You can, anonymization and gathering data in aggregate, if implemented well, can ensure data can't be attributed to any one person. Who owns the data is a separate issue that you're conflating into privacy.
I get your perspective, but opt-in really isn't a great solution in terms of dataset. That's just the reality of it. Opt-in is super self-selecting and you get data that's basically an echo chamber of people who actually care enough about your product to contribute data. Being in an echo chamber doesn't make a great product.
No, you cannot. Every single bit of data collected, completely unconnected to your identify, is a violation of the privacy of the user. Connecting it to a user is worse, but that's irrelevant. Literally zero data created by the user can ever be acceptable to collect without their explicit decision to give it to you.
It does not and cannot matter how much less useful it makes the data. Taking it completely unconnected to anyone is a breach of privacy in every case.
I think you're expanding the concept of privacy beyond what most people are concerned about. I think its great that you have such a hard line stance on privacy, but to be honest from a practical standpoint, it's total overkill.
That's what privacy is. It's not getting spied on by programs on your computer phoning home.
If you collect any data whatsoever that isn't strictly opt in, you do not respect the privacy of your users. That's a tautology. There's no way around it. You have a right to nothing.
I mean sure, you can be dramatic and compare it to spying programs, or you can consider it like your average government census that prioritizes government programs to your benefit, except in this case its collecting WAY less data and it isn't even attributed to you in any way.
Honestly, I think its fine you think that way, but you have to realize its a bit like living in a cave, completely disconnected from everybody. Not everyone thinks that Linux should go that route.
If that is your stance, then there is literally zero privacy anymore. Zilch.
If I'm walking down the street and somebody marks that one person walked down the street, does that invade my privacy?
In that case, how does the concept of privacy even matter anymore? There is none, and there never will be.
The street a public space.
Your computer is not. If someone came into your home without permission and sent data back to some random company, you'd have them arrested.
[deleted]
[deleted]
First off, opt-in is the best way to get to the core of your sample size, because everyone that opts-in is someone that wants to help!
That is already a biased group. I am sorry, but you can't just cater your product to those who are super passionate about it. That's a great way to enter into an echo chamber where valid criticisms are hidden behind enthusiasm. I mean, think about it, how many weird quirks of Linux are we, as enthusiasts, willing to put up with or don't even recognize are issues for others?
You should not surround yourself with yes-men if you want to get constructive feedback.
The issue is seeing Red Hat flex their muscle over a community driven project.
To be honest, I feel like you're letting the controversy of the past few weeks cloud your perspective. FOSS projects do need feedback regardless of whether they're owned by a company or not.
[deleted]
If you aren’t dedicated enough to fill out a bug report or help me help you with issues… I don’t want to know your situation.
Which means you're only listening to the people who are technically inclined. That's a lot more siloed than you realize and leads to UX that really isn't suitable for anything beyond the IT department. Maybe that's your thing, but frankly, I'd like to see Linux expand beyond the datacenter and beyond the 2% of gamers.
Furthermore, I think you just don’t realize that Fedora has been doing fine for 20-ish years
Again, that's siloed thinking. It's perfectly fine...for the Linux space, but frankly I think every single distro genuinely needs more usability data because the UX really isn't great in a lot of ways, and I say this as a Linux enthusiast of 15 years and a software dev myself. Doing fine is the status quo.
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