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Lemmy is a worse platform for women than Reddit was EDIT this link is an OLD POST that contains my thesis on the state of lemmy and is not the context of the much more recent comment in the screenshot. sorry for any confusion caused by this juxtaposition, my main goal with having this linked is to expose how nothing has improved
OOP was downvoted for a non-sequitur on top of a strawman.
When their original argument was refuted they posted what OP posted above as if it was a relevant comeback.
OP is a malignant poster leaving out context.
~~link, please?~~ Edit: found it.
Seems like pretty typical self-centred reply-guy behaviour, then all the men downvoting got annoyed because the person fighting on behalf of women in this interaction refused to entertain the implication that men are owed sex by women
Nobody said women owed anything. They are saying that collectively punishing men for things they did not do is a fast track to creating more incels.
Hello, thanks for your reply, I appreciate that we can have a civil conversation about a topic that can be quite heated. I’m a man, so I definitely can’t speak for women, but I try my best to listen, and I can try to pass on what I’ve learned!
You’re totally right that nobody in the screenshot wrote the words “men are owed sex by women”, but if you’ll give me the benefit of the doubt, I think there’s something a little deeper at play here, and I think it really depends on your perspective.
Rather than explain it directly, it might be easier to use an example - let’s say that you have a friend who you don’t want to have sex with. If that friend is really nice to you, and you don’t have sex with them, are you punishing them?
If that friend said something like, “You know, if you don’t have sex with us, we might become more violent and dangerous…” how do you think that would make you feel?
Personally, I would feel a bit scared by that sort of statement - I feel that it’s coercive, and it has a kind of veiled threat of violence there that makes me uncomfortable.
I hope that helps explain why some people might read the message differently from how you read it.
But this is about instructing women to withhold sex from men as a means to achieve their societal goals.
This does not make sense because It is counterproductive to punish people who already agree with your point of view.
Why do you feel like a lack of sex is a punishment? Isn't a lack of sex the baseline? If I don't buy my friend a gift, that's not a punishment, that is a neutral action. Unless the implied assumption was that I owe it to them to give them gifts.
You are not understanding the argument.
Let's say two people are regularly having sex with consent. And man already agrees with her on the issues listed above.
Then OOP pops up and says she should not have sex with him to get her rights back.
Explain to me how not having sex with the man will get her rights back? He already supports them.
Thanks again for the reply - I think I understand your point, which I think is genuinely interesting and worthy of discussion, but there is just something about the phrasing that feels off to me, and just to be clear, I’m sure it’s unintentional. I’m sure we can both agree that we would always want to make everyone feel safe, respected and valued, but sometimes we can accidentally say (or write) things in a way that come across in a way that we don’t intend.
In my opinion, talking about women ‘withholding’ sex as a ‘punishment’ implies a certain level of expectation or entitlement, like men are entitled to have sex with women and if they don’t have sex then they’re punishing men. This is something that I think a lot of us sort of struggle to recognise as harmful, because we all are human and we know that we all have a need for sex, both men and women - but historically, this kind of framing, that men are entitled to sex with women. has been used to excuse violent sexual crimes
There’s totally a valid conversation to be had about how effective this movement could be, but I think that it’s really important that men like myself need to start from a place of recognising that our behaviour can be really hurtful to women, even when we don’t intend it to be, and that we listen to them when they tell us that we can make really simple small changes to protect their humanity, make them feel safe and valued, and recognise the part that we all play - consciously and unconsciously - in the system that has mistreated women for longer than we can possibly fathom.
In my opinion, talking about women ‘withholding’ sex as a ‘punishment’ implies a certain level of expectation or entitlement, like men are entitled to have sex with women
No they are not entitled. But the poster specifically instructs people to withhold sex. Even if the woman wants to have sex. This could make sense if the woman was having sex with someone who opposes the ownership of their bodies. But if the man already holds their point of view, what is the point? For who are they not having sex? What is being achieved?
Again, I totally get your point, and I think it’s a worthwhile conversation to have, but that’s not really what I’m here to talk about - I’m just trying to explain what happened in the comment thread, why people got upset, and how we can avoid that so that we can have open and productive conversations about these really sensitive topics without upsetting people.
The reality is that women so often have to deal with men trying to control their sexuality, so when we’re talking about these topics in good faith, we really need to be extra cautious that we’re handling these topics delicately and respectfully.
Sure thing. But that is not what OP was insinuating with his original argument.
I’m not sure I really understand who you’re referring to when you write “OP”, but either way, I think that that with the additional context I explained above, the comment reply of “women do not exist for you to have sex” is quite understandable - I personally don’t feel that it is fair to describe it as a non-sequitur.
Honestly, I find it kind of weird that the top level comment (as written by Lightor) is more about how the movement would affect him, and I think that it probably demonstrates that he isn’t really the ally he seems to think he is. In my opinion, if he really was “one of the good guys”, he wouldn’t have written his comment the way he did.
Anyways, I think I’ve said all I have to say - thanks again for the respectful conversation, and I hope you have a great day, much love and solidarity!
the sick part is there isn’t even profit to be had here on lemmy :( so it’s all for nothing and i guess since fedi is modeled after for-profit platforms the same patterns play out
I think we can improve. We just need to do it for its own sake rather than to make it a friendly platform for advertisers.
Oh, and since the exact people your post is about simply can't help themselves and are already pouring in to mansplain and make excuses for themselves, the obligatory:
Seeing the state if discourse in the B4 movement threads makes it so obvious that the present community on lemmy is wildly sexist and misogynistic. Like how egotistical and selfish do you have to be to see a movement that is a rational response to women having their bodily autonomy taken away from them in real time, and interpret that situation in a way where you perceive it as a threat to your personal chances of getting laid?
You could be seeing this movement and choosing to recognize that it is coming from a place of justified fear, anger, and suffering of women all over the country, and decide, "This situation is wrong, we need to fight this." It's not hard. Just be an ally.
chad ✅: wow this is insane behavior to see as a man but i understand that women would not be doing this unless the situation was really dire. i am open to listening first and will keep my knee jerk judgements private at least at first.
virgin ❌: wow this is insane behavior to see as a man, and this kind of shit is literally why you women experience sexism in the first place. actions (self preservation and solidarity) have consequences (sexism and radicalization). don’t mind me as i fill this entire thread about women asking to be heard with my hot takes on the situation 🤓☝️
Replace 'virgin' with 'potential rapist' and you've got it.
given the sensitive nature of all this, let’s maybe not repeat that one
No, seriously, that movement is not justified at all. It's full of transphobia, homophobia, and on top of all this racism expected from Korea of course. They harassed trans people going to women's university, death threat included of course, and also harasses any trans individuals appearing on timeline via QRT/Reply/etc. You should think about this when you talk about that movement.
Some good reads (though on twitter sadly): https://x.com/codud066/status/1855670602985873464 https://x.com/muntamor/status/1855683991262908714
EDIT: The last part was a bit rude, so toned it down a bit. Anyways, as trans individual living in Korea unfortunately, I do feel very unsafe (and had a panic attack) by those kinds of people.
i totally hear your concerns, it’s sort of a weird situation because the name is being adopted from an entirely different cultural context by people who might have just heard about it this week
i will say that all the genuine circles i have seen expressing interest in 4b have done their research and are outspoken about rejecting transphobia and only retaining the good parts in their practice, so that’s heartening :)
That's hopeful to hear. The concept of the movement itself is decent, so I hope those don't go the way of TERF like here in Korea.
i straight up blocked lemmy.world after the “strange man or a bear” thing blew up, and i realized LITERALLY THE ONLY PEOPLE arguing in favor of the man were all coincidentally on that instance.
honestly very incel-y
I really suggest people don't block it. Lemmy needs active users and communities engaging with each other and while it is going to have some crazies just from how many people are on it, it should also be the least vulnerable to group think. When I hear of another instance defederating I always suspect it of being a fringe echo chamber.
Honestly though I would defend the man too. Take from that what you will, but I'll just say it's usually good to be exposed to people who disagree with you.
i respect your perspective, i’m absolutely not unblocking it tho.
it’s not the fact that they defended the man, it’s the way they were doing it. my experience has been wholly more enjoyable post-block, and i’d recommend anyone else in my shoes do the same thing.
i saw too much bad faith engagement to validate staying around in spite of “a few bad apples”. for a hot minute if it was posted on .world then anyone arguing for the bear in the comments would get dogpiled and downvoted to shit, and to me that was indicative of a larger problem than just “being too popular”
