Didn't Russia use cluster bombs in Ukraine since as early as march 2022 ?
this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2023
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Both sides have been using them from the beginning. This is just a combination of Russian amplification and the actual news cycle.
incorrect, the Ukrainians have not been using them but they will be using them pretty soon.
Yes, that too on civilians. Now Putin is pretending none of that happened.
Putin: "Russia will use cluster bombs if we have to, we already have, since the beginning, but we will still use them if we have to."
Has Putin watched too much Mitch Hedberg?
They already used them.
I was gonna say. I distinctly remember that the only reason cluster munitions were sent was in response to Russian ones targeting civilians.
They were using cluster munition from very beginning. There were videos of cluster munition being used in cities with civilians. In the infamous Kramatorsk railway station attack russia used cluster munition for example. Which is what makes putin's statement quite misleading. It's effectively lying by omission.
That's incorrect. It's because conventional ammunition is running low AND they hope the cluster bombs will help to break the Russian lines/trenches.
@little_cow He already has???
Yep- not sure how putin making this statement is any kind of news.
this is like an announcement to the russian people who don't really know what is going on in Ukraine. That's why he still has 80% support, most russians are fooled by state tv and think all the info on the internet is western propaganda when actually only 23% of it is.
From what I understand Putin is using a stricter definition of "cluster bombs" as a muntition containing a bomblets submunition.
I have seen of Russian videos munitions are hypersonic missiles, thermobaric bombs (incendiary submunition), and timed remote mine submunitions (a timed self-destruct feature or one that turns it inert after a while) but none utilizing a pressure fuse like the butterfly mines that were used by Ukraine.
They are terrible weapons regardless of definition
Even if it was just pure anti-personnel clusters, we have evidence of that far back in 2022. So even then he would be lying. For example there is photo graphic evidence from the bomb disposal teams in Ukraine of 9N24 submunition. Which is soviet pure anti-personnel submunition for their cluster dispensers. It has no other purpose. It isn't even dual use dumb HEAT/FRAG submunition. 9N24 is pure fragmentations anti-personnel round with simple contact fuse. Hit's ground, the explosive core along the main cylinder shaped munition explodes and well the whole outside wall is lined with steel balls to be thrown in 360 all around.
Similarly 9N210 HE/FRAG munitions have been documented. Again useless against armored targets, only use case is against soft targets like humans. As have 9N235 again HE/FRAG sub munitions been documented.
All same purpose, just little different sized and exact design for different dispensers. Some those might theoretically have fuses with self destruct. However the whole point about cluster munitions being bad is fuses fail, including supposed self-destruct fuses. There is no such thing as 100% reliable fuse, even self destruct one.
My source: Armaments Research Services articles on the subject. I'm sure there is bunch of other more official sources also, including listing more individual incidents and attacks. ARES are just convenient source here, since they are interested the weapons technologies and types used in conflicts, so they have bunch of articles of "This specific type of submunitions has now been seen in Ukraine".
none utilizing a pressure fuse like the butterfly mines that were used by Ukraine.
Both sides claim the other is using these, and both sides likely are.
Yes, and called them "precision strikes against military targets".
They're already using them.
Ukraine is using them to clear minefields planted by Russians who illegally entered the country for the purpose of mass murder. I think we can give Ukraine a pass on what type of munitions they think will be useful for saving lives.
and also to clear the russian trenches of russian soldiers
Definitely agree
Whoa settle down Russia next they will be saying they are going to try and take kyiv in 3 days.
They already used them and already committed countless war crimes.
The people claiming Ukraine is committing crime were just distracted when Russia used them on civilians? Anyways the Ukrainian Government already stated that they will not be used in towns and cities but only to clear minefields
Distracted? I dunno. Russian propagandists/bots seems more likely.
Even at the bar I tend, filled with "conservatives" that think Donald was cheated out of the election, there isn't anyone who believes Russia is in the right.
He followed it up by saying that if Ukraine doesn't watch their step, Russia may need to send troops into Ukraine too.
From what I read the main purpose of cluster munitions is for offensive maneuvers, so my hope is Russia will be too busy (and unsuccessful) holding their frontlines to make effective use of them.
Can we just draw and quarter Putin already?
We really need to lift all restrictions for Ukraine on the use of weapons they're being given. Let them rain horror on the Russian people, and see how fast the country turns against putin and his regime. Otherwise this war will drag on forever.
Bombing Russian civilians will not hasten the end of the war and could very possibly strengthen public support putin. Also let's encourage even more war crimes than are already happening.
^ This
No, let them rain horror down on Russian invaders inside their country. Using these in Russia will mean the west won't send them anymore and will cut off aid, and Biden and NATO have said as much.
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