What I can't figure out is how large the group is.
this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2022
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Oh, didn't catch that. Wooooow. I knew Putin was using neo-Nazism as a strawman, but I didn't realize it was over 0.002% of the population at most. The man's a lying snake.
Azov battallion are the elite of the Ukranian army, that is why they are so widely known. It doesnt mean that they are the only fascists in their military, far from it. Most volunteer soldiers are probably far-right or outright fascist.
First of all, estimated by whom, Al Jazeera? Second, Azov is a militia, so its members are full time paramilitaries who train and fight. The people who support Azov are much larger, but the point is there influence in government. Most Ukrainian people are not Nazis, I hope, which is why they are being liberated. Another point, Azov is one of many neo-nazi battalions and groups. These are just the most notorious, and the ones that have been tied to the most brutal acts and demonstrations.
The fact that these groups and ideologies are completely normalized now in many parts of Ukraine is, or was, a great concern. Lots of good documentaries on this btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWM4lChqy4
First of all, estimated by whom, Al Jazeera?
Well, yes. They're generally a pretty high quality source, though you have to watch for bias especially around Qatar. If you have another source that isn't wildly biased, by all means bring it forward. I'm not assuming that this article is correct.
Most Ukrainian people are not Nazis, I hope, which is why they are being liberated.
Damn, when people reference an invasion by the US as "liberation" it is now tongue in cheek, referencing Dick Cheney's infamous words "We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." I didn't expect that to be applied to a Russian invasion that is clearly opposed by the vast majority of Ukrainians. But here we are. "Liberated" at gunpoint.
The fact that these groups and ideologies are completely normalized now in many parts of Ukraine is, or was, a great concern.
It is a concern. You know what isn't helping? Invading the fucking country. Ukraine's civil society has to have breathing room to purge itself of toxic elements like Azov and corruption. The constant menace and now outright invasion by Russia leaves little flexibility there. Ukraine gets left with no good options. If Ukraine was left alone with some appropriate amount of diplomatic pressure, it could absolutely deal with issues with Azov.
Damn, when people reference an invasion by the US as “liberation” it is now tongue in cheek
Actually, the most famous usage of that word by the US was the liberation of Europe from the Nazis. So I think it works well.
It is a concern
You really think so? Because earlier you were telling me that the Nazi thing was overblown. Just a guy "calling Putin a Jew" every now and then. I'm glad we've convinced you.
Ukraine government has no interest in getting rid of the fascists. In fact, they have to appease them in some respects or else they will get another violent Maidan coup against them this time. If you watch the mini documentary I linked, you can see Azov supporters set up a guillotine outside a government building in Kiev.
I don't trust they are capable or even want to get rid of the neo-nazi paramilitaries. They are integrated into their military. In the US we recently banned extremist ideologies. Ukraine can't do that without turning these forces against themselves. They too are held hostage if they want a unified front to defeat the Donbas republics.
There are also still many sympathetic to them in positions of power. We've seen even more evidence of this recently.
Actually, the most famous usage of that word by the US was the liberation of Europe from the Nazis. So I think it works well.
Well clearly it doesn't work well here, because they're not being treated as liberators.
You really think so? Because earlier you were telling me that the Nazi thing was overblown. Just a guy “calling Putin a Jew” every now and then. I’m glad we’ve convinced you.
I'm trying to get an honest assessment of Azov, their ideology, and how they can best be eliminated. I don't think I ever dismissed them as nothing more than occasionally calling Putin a Jew, like you're characterizing. What I'm very convinced of is that Putin is using them purely as an pretext to invade Ukraine. If they didn't exist, he would have made up another justification. I think I'll leave it at that, because it seems like you are completely enthralled with Putin even though the man lies his ass off regularly.
I don’t think I ever dismissed them as nothing more than occasionally calling Putin a Jew
I’m sure you could some dude mouthing off about how Putin is a Jew trying to take over Ukraine, but that’s a far cry from “quite influential”
Isn't that how you described the neo-nazi situation in Ukraine?
I’m trying to get an honest assessment of Azov, their ideology
No you're not, you're trying to minimize it.
it seems like you are completely enthralled with Putin
You were the one who brought up Putin, hit Ctrl + F. It seems you are enthralled. To me, it wouldn't matter if Shoygu or Zyuganov or whoever was in charge. It's about Russia.
Well clearly it doesn’t work well here, because they’re not being treated as liberators.
How are you so sure this is true of all of Ukraine? In some places, sure, you see people waving Ukrainian flags. But they won't show you where people are bringing flowers to the soldiers, telling them how "we've been waiting for you" and celebrating, launching fireworks. Ukraine is a divided country, which is why there has been a civil war for 8 years and internal political unrest for far longer.
Isn’t that how you described the neo-nazi situation in Ukraine?
No you’re not, you’re trying to minimize it.
The post you referenced made no definitive claim as to how influential Azov is. As I have said, I don't have the knowledge to even begin to make that assessment. As I have said repeatedly, I think the neo-Nazi situation in Ukraine is not only overstated to justify the unjustifiable, but the continuous pressure place on Ukraine is unhelpful in eliminating Azov.
You were the one who brought up Putin, hit Ctrl + F. It seems you are enthralled. To me, it wouldn’t matter if Shoygu or Zyuganov or whoever was in charge. It’s about Russia.
You're echoing his talking points and plans.
But they won’t show you where people are bringing flowers to the soldiers, telling them how “we’ve been waiting for you” and celebrating, launching fireworks
I'm sure there are a few people like that, but they simply do not represent anywhere near the bulk of the population. And you don't get to invade a sovereign nation just because a minority of that nation is in support. Hell, before this even started 72% viewed Russia an hostile state and 12% viewed it as an ally according to a poll from December. Now that the bombs and bodies are dropping, I suspect those number are even more slanted away from Russia.
The post you referenced made no definitive claim as to how influential Azov is
But it made an implicit claim. When you juxtapose my claim of Azov being quite influential, with your characterization of "some dude mouthing off about how Putin is a Jew", in order for the two to be compared, the latter has to have some kind of meaning. And we know what you meant. Don't try to backtrack now.
You’re echoing his talking points and plans.
I don't know what to tell you. I didn't even listen to Putin's speech before all of this. I come to my conclusions based on class analysis and 8 years of following journalists on the ground in Donbas. If that leads me to similar conclusions, it's not a coincidence, it is because there is objective truth there.
You can bring up recent polling, but the truth is, before Maidan, the people in Ukraine were far more in favor of being in Russia's economic sphere than they were of joining the EU and NATO, with a good amount of people just wanting to stay neutral like Kazakhstan. After billions of US dollars spent for the purpose of changing public opinion through organizations like the NED, and after the three most pro-Russia oblasts with population totaling 11 million in 2013 break from Ukraine, of course you would see an overall change.
But looking at Ukraine from this unitary perspective is not useful when Ukraine is a very divided country. Just look at the map in this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine. Of course, no one likes war, but no one likes being shelled for 8 years in the Donbas war either where 80% of the 14,000 casualties occur within rebel areas, many of those civilian.
Btw, if you think this is normal... If you think the neo-nazi situation is overstated when Kiev can have a mall on a street named after a Nazi collaborator and inside they have a Swastika symbol on the stairs and people just walk around like it's any normal Tuesday, you have a real fucking problem my friend.
It's so funny how people could have approached this from any angle. You could have admitted all of this and still found an argument against Russian intervention. But you had to say the nazism was "overstated." Biggest self report I've ever seen.
I’m curious, are you pro-invasion because of these thoughts, or are you trying to make some point that isn’t coming through?
Pro/against doesn't really matter at this point because Russia has already decided to intervene in Ukraine. I am a materialist and I try to concern myself with the objective reality of what is, not people's subjective ideas of what should be. But since Russia has already made this decision, I still support them.