this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2022
3 points (80.0% liked)
Europe
3904 readers
6 users here now
Europa
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Well clearly it doesn't work well here, because they're not being treated as liberators.
I'm trying to get an honest assessment of Azov, their ideology, and how they can best be eliminated. I don't think I ever dismissed them as nothing more than occasionally calling Putin a Jew, like you're characterizing. What I'm very convinced of is that Putin is using them purely as an pretext to invade Ukraine. If they didn't exist, he would have made up another justification. I think I'll leave it at that, because it seems like you are completely enthralled with Putin even though the man lies his ass off regularly.
Isn't that how you described the neo-nazi situation in Ukraine?
No you're not, you're trying to minimize it.
You were the one who brought up Putin, hit Ctrl + F. It seems you are enthralled. To me, it wouldn't matter if Shoygu or Zyuganov or whoever was in charge. It's about Russia.
How are you so sure this is true of all of Ukraine? In some places, sure, you see people waving Ukrainian flags. But they won't show you where people are bringing flowers to the soldiers, telling them how "we've been waiting for you" and celebrating, launching fireworks. Ukraine is a divided country, which is why there has been a civil war for 8 years and internal political unrest for far longer.
The post you referenced made no definitive claim as to how influential Azov is. As I have said, I don't have the knowledge to even begin to make that assessment. As I have said repeatedly, I think the neo-Nazi situation in Ukraine is not only overstated to justify the unjustifiable, but the continuous pressure place on Ukraine is unhelpful in eliminating Azov.
You're echoing his talking points and plans.
I'm sure there are a few people like that, but they simply do not represent anywhere near the bulk of the population. And you don't get to invade a sovereign nation just because a minority of that nation is in support. Hell, before this even started 72% viewed Russia an hostile state and 12% viewed it as an ally according to a poll from December. Now that the bombs and bodies are dropping, I suspect those number are even more slanted away from Russia.
But it made an implicit claim. When you juxtapose my claim of Azov being quite influential, with your characterization of "some dude mouthing off about how Putin is a Jew", in order for the two to be compared, the latter has to have some kind of meaning. And we know what you meant. Don't try to backtrack now.
I don't know what to tell you. I didn't even listen to Putin's speech before all of this. I come to my conclusions based on class analysis and 8 years of following journalists on the ground in Donbas. If that leads me to similar conclusions, it's not a coincidence, it is because there is objective truth there.
You can bring up recent polling, but the truth is, before Maidan, the people in Ukraine were far more in favor of being in Russia's economic sphere than they were of joining the EU and NATO, with a good amount of people just wanting to stay neutral like Kazakhstan. After billions of US dollars spent for the purpose of changing public opinion through organizations like the NED, and after the three most pro-Russia oblasts with population totaling 11 million in 2013 break from Ukraine, of course you would see an overall change.
But looking at Ukraine from this unitary perspective is not useful when Ukraine is a very divided country. Just look at the map in this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine. Of course, no one likes war, but no one likes being shelled for 8 years in the Donbas war either where 80% of the 14,000 casualties occur within rebel areas, many of those civilian.
Btw, if you think this is normal... If you think the neo-nazi situation is overstated when Kiev can have a mall on a street named after a Nazi collaborator and inside they have a Swastika symbol on the stairs and people just walk around like it's any normal Tuesday, you have a real fucking problem my friend.
It's so funny how people could have approached this from any angle. You could have admitted all of this and still found an argument against Russian intervention. But you had to say the nazism was "overstated." Biggest self report I've ever seen.