this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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[–] IHeartBadCode@kbin.social 61 points 11 months ago (9 children)

Things to note about these:

  • Most models are 220V 30A. If you have an electrical already, you likely have everything you need here. If you have gas, you will need to run 10 AWG or 8 AWG wiring and install a new breaker. Depending on where you live, you'll likely need a permit and have your handy work inspected before putting the water heater to service. If you aren't sure when you'll need 10 AWG over 8 AWG, hire a professional.
  • The 120V 15A models are slower at heating water and do so for a smaller volume. These models you can plug right into the wall, but they are usually a bit slower at coming to temperature for the water and for smaller volume. There's a Rheem version that's plug-in and has something like a 80 gallon store. However, it is highly recommended for use only in warm climates and installed outside in a small enclosure. Basically if you don't live in Southern California, Texas, Florida and all the states that touch those states in between them, you shouldn't try using this.
  • Like all heat pumps, there is an air filter that you need to replace. Usually these devices have apps that will notify you when a filter is needing to be cleaned or replaced.
  • Also like all heat pumps, there's a fan motor that will make sound. Luckily, most heat pump water heaters attempt to minimize the sound. That said, it's not zero sound and nobody should be recommending that one of these things be installed in a room adjacent to a bedroom. I mean, this is one of those things that really depends on "how well do you tolerate noise?" But these things will produce a pretty consistent hum.
  • The act of cooling the air from these reduces the humidity in the air. So you must drain that water that is produced. I think this is one thing that catches most people off-guard about these. Most water heaters don't have a method for draining water because water around a water heater is usually a bad sign. So you do need to drain off the condensate. You can take a big bucket and collect the water to bail later, but how much water it'll produce is dependent on what the humidity is in your area. If you're in like Florida except something like a hint over a gallon of water per day. But most professional installations will install a drain line for you that leads to the outside, unless you're putting this thing like smack dab in the dead middle of your house and you're on a slab. That would obviously present a slightly higher challenge for that drain line installation.

But all that said, these things are super neato. It's just really important for people to have realistic expectations before installing one.

[–] Wxfisch@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

A lot of these depend on the model and where it’s installed (geographically and within the house). In many areas of the US, there is a drain in the floor near all water heaters as a matter of code, you can drain condensate directly to that (and unlike gas appliances, the condensate is clean and does not need treated to go in household drains). I honestly think the noise concern is hugely overblown and used as an excuse for people that don’t like change. Sure it exists, but if your water heater is in the basement or garage like the majority are at least in my areas of the US, you’ll never notice it. I also look at the cooling air as a benefit for at least half the year, I can close all the vents in our basement for the whole spring/summer and it’s super comfortable. In the winter it’s a tad chilly, but not uncomfortable. Drying the air is also great for our basement, it’s literally a dehumidifier in what’s usually a pretty damp location for many people. Ours (a rheem unit) has a flimsy plastic air filter you vaccuum off once a year as well so not really a huge deal. I think most are like this.

I agree that folks should do their homework and understand what they are getting. Heat pump water heaters are great, but are overpriced at the moment. Even with electric company rebates and a tax credit it cost more than a decent gas replacement would for us. It’s likely to only pay off because we have solar and so don’t really pay for electricity for a large chunk of the year. But I expect costs to come down over the next 5-10 years as these become the go to for most electric installs (and with fewer new gas hookups in new and renovated buildings that’s like to be most installs). Once these hit that $700-$1000 price point there’s really no good reason most people shouldn’t default to installing one.

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[–] specseaweed@lemmy.world 51 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

I have a Sanco2 heat pump water heater. The heat pump is located outside the house, with the tank in the basement (so no noise!). It is so absurdly efficient that I thought I was measuring the power draw wrong. Its expensive up front, but a big fat govt tax credit sure helped and the monthly power cost is about the same as my coffee maker.

The tank inside is 83 gallons. I can run the dishwasher, two showers, and anything else I can imagine and it handles it like a champ. The heat pump heats the water so fast that it refills it in minutes, not hours.

And since there's no element or anything in the tank, there's virtually nothing to break or fix in it. Nothing to rust, no joints to go bad. The tank is constructed solely for water in and out via pump and that's it. It looks like a military designed tank because there's no reason not to fortify it to last forever. So they did.

Between that and my induction range and heat pump AC/furnance, we turned off our natural gas connection. I love love love all of them.

[–] sunbeam60@lemmy.one 9 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Oh, you Americans with your hot-water dishwashers! ❤️

[–] kboy101222@lemm.ee 13 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Wait, are hot water dish washers not a thing outside the US?

[–] Taringano@lemm.ee 17 points 11 months ago (5 children)

I think it's everywhere but in the US the water comes already hot, in Europe the dishwasher heats it up from the regular cold water.

[–] Squizzy@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (7 children)

Yeah the hot water way seems better.

[–] Mr_Blott@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (16 children)

It's because our dishwashers are massively more efficient and environmentally friendly.

They use very little water, which they heat up themselves to save energy

The only drawback is they take longer to clean the dishes, up to three hours

But nobody would be so selfish as to demand their dishes be done quickly over preserving our environment, would they?

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[–] sunbeam60@lemmy.one 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It depends. Spraying your dishes with water that is prone to legionella doesn’t seem super safe to me. But even assuming that, I have dishwasher programs than run at 70C, which is above what my hot water tank produces.

Besides, isn’t there a heating element in a US dishwasher regardless? Otherwise, it feels like it has got to continually add more hot water to keep the temperature up…

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[–] tunetardis@lemmy.ca 18 points 11 months ago (7 children)

I've been considering replacing the central a/c in my house with a heat pump to handle home heating as well, but never thought about heating water that way also. That's interesting. Can you get a single heat pump system that does both?

Where water heating is concerned, I do know a guy who set up a solar water heater, and he made some compelling arguments for it. Like he considered rooftop solar panels initially to generate electricity, but opted for water heating instead. He pointed out that while electric panels are maybe 20% efficient, water heating is nearly 100% efficient, and his system works so well that it even needs to shut off every now and then to prevent overheating. Anyway, I'm not vouching for this personally since I have no experience with it, but I'm just throwing it out there another possible approach?

[–] admiralteal@kbin.social 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I don't think there's much for consumer single heat pump systems that do both. I've seen a few, especially with geothermal systems, but mostly it's just a tiny heat pump built into the cap of a traditional water heater.

Worth pointing out that the nature of a heat pump is that the housewide heat pump is first pumping warm air into the house to make it available for the water heater, which then pumps that warm air into the water. So it is just one big machine, fundamentally. Or, if your air conditioner is running, the water heater heat pump is adding some cooling to the space.

The criticism of the heat pump water heater: they're loud. A high frequency compressor buzz while operating. If you are switching to one, make sure it is located somewhere where the noise won't bother you. Mine is in a mechanical room in the middle of my house and it is annoying when operating -- I program it to run at night and close doors when going to bed. If I could do it over again, I'd put in in the (insulated) attic in spite of all the risks involved in that. More hot air available for it to use up there anyway.

[–] Notsosuperfloh@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 11 months ago

at my parents house the is a 14kw heat pump that does heating and water and it's not an industrial heat pump. you can get them from daikin, but they need three phase ac.

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[–] Emi621@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Can confirm the solar water heating works great, if it's sunny you get 60°c water by noon.

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[–] dmtalon@infosec.pub 4 points 11 months ago

Can you get a single heat pump system that does both?

We have a geothermal heat pump that we put in when we built our house. It uses water (closed loops) to exchange heat/cold instead of air. But that unit also has a desuperheater that does supplement hot water. The ideal setup is to have a non-powered water heater that is warmed by the output of the desuperheater, that feeds a powered water heater. This creates a situation where the water entering the powered water heater is already pretty warm requiring less work for it.

unfortunately, my knowledge at the time wasn't where it is today, and our installer was also not well versed. So we just have a single water heater, but it is plumbed into the desuperheater at least. Ours just cycles water through the desuperheater into the powered tank. Probably still helps some but I suspect not as much.

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[–] janus2@lemmy.zip 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Relevant Technology Connections
[Invidious link]

A section in his 2-part series on electrifying most major home appliances, and the technology behind different modern options

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[–] CraigeryTheKid@lemm.ee 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

In Midwest USA gas is so ridiculously cheap that it still beats total cost of ownership. Plus the new electric to install. Even central heat pump is hard to justify (on price alone I mean).

[–] Kelsenellenelvial@lemmy.ca 10 points 11 months ago (7 children)

This is true in central Canada too. Heat pumps get pushed saying they put out 3 times as much heat as the energy they use, but electricity is 7x the cost of natural gas.

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[–] downhomechunk@midwest.social 4 points 11 months ago

Maybe my gas is more expensive than other parts of the Midwest. But my old gas water heater just died about 6 weeks ago. I swapped in a 55 gallon hybrid / electric heat pump model. I did the re-wire and install myself (which I acknowledge not everyone is comfortable doing).

My most recent gas and electric bills were compelling. I've been using my gas furnace already, and my gas bill is the lowest it's ever been since I bought this house 5 years ago (including summer, non-heating months). And my electric bill increase was negligible.

Sure, my old unit was not running as efficiently as it could bave. And newer gas models probably have improved efficiency. But I can't deny the savings in my bills. Between the tax rebate and the savings, I'll make back my extra investment and then some before this thing dies.

[–] OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

For me it means I don't need any propane deliveries in the summer, and it helps dehumidify a damp corner of the basement. I'm not sure if it actually saves me any money though.

[–] mint_tamas@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Depends entirely on where in the world you live, which is the primary influencing factor for the price of gas.

[–] ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago (7 children)

If I'm getting a new water heater, I'd rather get a tankless honestly. I figure by the time I'm ready for a new water heater, the tankless technology will be even better and will be perfectly ready for me to use it.

[–] Tire@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago (8 children)

Tankless still uses gas and it won’t make the water coming out of your faucet instantly hot. If that’s what you are looking for you want a recirculating pump or two.

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[–] Darkbug@lemmy.one 7 points 11 months ago (4 children)

I love my geothermal water heater! With a family of 5 and 3 full bathrooms we never run out of hot water. We planned to go tankless until we went geothermal.

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[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago

I've got one in a small closet and it has the added advantage of chilling that room enough to store wine

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Not a word about recovery time

And they think a low power one is good?

[–] Wxfisch@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

YMMV of course, and will highly depend on how many people are in your house and how you use hot water, but a 50 gallon heat pump water heater easily supplies a dishwasher and two long showers with 1/3 of a tank of available water left in our house (and I take pretty hot showers that are not always as short as they should be). Sure, it takes an hour or two to fully recover but we aren’t ever looking to use much more hot water at one time. If you have a household of four, it may be a bit more of a problem, but then you can easily schedule other hot water uses to happen “off peak” like a dishwasher.

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[–] trag468@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

We had a GE that had the heat pump die after a couple years. Now our AO Smith will randomly not have hot water some mornings with no error codes. I am all for heat pumps, I am just not enjoying being a beta tester. I'd like to replace my gas furnace with a heat pump but my previous experiences make me nervous. Hopefully in a few years they will be rock solid reliable.

[–] spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago

Heat pump water heaters are relatively new, but heat pumps for interior heating and cooling have been around for decades. I have a 14 year old system that works well.

[–] nicetriangle@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago

Heat pumps for indoor climate control work great.

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