this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
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Unpopular Opinion

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Wanting to kill people (and/or going through with it) isn't indicative of a mental illness (reddthat.com)
submitted 1 year ago by PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com to c/unpopularopinion@lemmy.world
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I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE NOR JUSTIFYING IT.

In the wake of the Onion's routine release of their "No Way To Prevent This" article, people like to blame the perpetrator's action on mental illness. That is, some sort of mental instability was the primary cause of a mass shooting. Logically, if that is true, then without that mental instability, the mass shooting wouldn't have happened, the person would have...done something else.

But this is bullshit.

There is a science behind why people commit violence. Why We Snap points out several "triggers":

  • Life-or Limb
  • Insult
  • Family
  • Environment
  • Mate
  • Order in society
  • Resources
  • Tribe
  • Stopped

It's completely reasonable to kill a person in self-defense. Almost no one denies this. That is the primary justification for the proliferation of guns in American society. This is not a mental illness.

At home, 72% of all murder-suicides involve an intimate partner; 94% of the victims of these murder suicides are female. There are a lot of reasons why men hurt and murder women, but fragile male egos that treat women as inferior and interpret their actions as insulting and as challenging to a man's masculinity is an entire trope. And yet, the gender essentialism of traditional masculinity isn't treated as mentally ill (or even just plain wrong).

Tucker Carlson was renowned for his supposed truth-telling about how the order of American society is being threatened by an invasion of immigrants. Trump did the same thing. A reasonable conclusion, then, is that the El Paso mass shooter was merely defending his beloved nation against this invasion of immigrants, whom he just so happens to hate because they threaten the order of society.

Similarly, the Nashville Christian academy shooter was trans. For many of us, transgenderism isn't a mental illness, and thus not a cause of excessive violence in and of itself. However, coupled with the antagonistic relationship between traditional Christianity and transgenderism, several of the triggers that don't assume mental illness make sense.

And, of course, tribe...oh boy! As American polarization increases among the electorate, the salience of tribes increases. Only like a week ago, GOP lawmakers that didn't support Jim Jordan's nomination for House Speaker were sent death threats over the phone. If you don't vote for their guy, they'll fuck you up! (But non-violently...listen to the clip). Being protective and supportive of people like you isn't considered a mental illlness.

Again, I don't believe any of this violence is justified, nor am I advocating for it. (I cannot stress that enough). My argument is that there are seemingly rational reasons to engage in violence in the moment. So, rather than scapegoating the mentally ill, maybe, just maybe, we should look to why it seemed like a rational decision for a mass shooter to kill a bunch of people. What was their motivation? What problem were they trying to solve? And why did excessive violence seem like a good way to solve the problem?

I believe this is a much better approach to any shooting or violence in general than the allowing an immediate pivot to mental illness as the causal factor.

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[–] theywilleatthestars@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They aren't mentally ill, they're terrorists.

[–] SoupBrick@yiffit.net 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

To those who think terrorism is just another buzz word for political outrage:

"Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims." -Wikipedia

If any murderer or attempted murderer has a 100% clear manifesto or political reasoning behind the violence they commit, it is terrorism.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

“Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims.” -Wikipedia

So inter-nation violence is terrorism. I'm glad to finally have people agree with me.

[–] PyroNeurosis@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Sure, but then so is policing and excommunication. Using the broadest possible brush is an express-ticket to uselessness.

[–] drbluefall@toast.ooo 1 points 1 year ago

Congratulations on derailing the conversation.

[–] moosepuggle@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago

This is the answer

[–] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're making two different arguments here and trying to pass them off as one.

  1. Is manslaughter indicative of mental illness in every case? Absolutely not. You point this out and I agree with it.

  2. Is every person who picks up a machine gun and goes out to kill people mentally ill? Yes, absolutely.

[–] PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

That's a good point. I am doing that.

I suppose I don't really see why planned manslaughter with any implement is fundamentally indicative of any mental illness. If every case individual case of manslaughter isn't mentally ill, then what makes every individual case of manslaughter with a machine gun mentally ill?

That doesn't follow logically.

[–] Chozo@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

planned manslaughter

Uhh, I think you need to look up the definition of "manslaughter".

If it's premeditated, it's not manslaughter.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

If I plan to pick up a baseball bat and fuck you up good, that's premeditated. If you die in the process, that's manslaughter. Premeditated or not.

The key to manslaughter is intent. I took an action (premeditated or in the spur of the moment) in which I intended to cause injury and instead caused death.

Now if I picked up the baseball bat with intent to kill you, that's murder.

[–] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I suppose I don't really see why planned manslaughter with any implement is fundamentally indicative of any mental illness

In which case then it's a matter of you not knowing how mental illness is diagnosed. If a person expressed homicidal thoughts with intent to a psychiatrist, they would be diagnosed with some form of mental illness. If nothing else, the disregard for other lives would qualify a person for a sociopathy diagnosis. In other words, it's medically impossible for someone to do one without the other (commit a mass shooting and being deemed mentally ill).

If every case individual case of manslaughter isn't mentally ill, then what makes every individual case of manslaughter with a machine gun mentally ill?

This is again two arguments presented as one. There are (limited) cases where manslaughter with a.machine gun would not qualify someone as being mentally ill. Self-defense is one, which I agreed with in my original comment. However, mass shootings and premeditated killings are not every manslaughter case.

[–] eatthecake@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Have a look at wikipedia. Homicidal ideation is not a mental illness. It is actually common, at least among university students surveyed.

Homicidal ideation is a common medical term for thoughts about homicide. There is a range of homicidal thoughts which spans from vague ideas of revenge to detailed and fully formulated plans without the act itself.[1] Most people who have homicidal ideation do not commit homicide. 50–91% of people surveyed on university grounds in various places in the United States admit to having had a homicidal fantasy.[2] Homicidal ideation is common, accounting for 10–17% of patient presentations to psychiatric facilities in the United States.[1]

Homicidal ideation is not a disease itself, but may result from other illnesses such as delirium and psychosis. Psychosis, which accounts for 89% of admissions with homicidal ideation in one US study,[3] includes substance-induced psychosis (e.g. amphetamine psychosis) and the psychoses related to schizophreniform disorder and schizophrenia. Delirium is often drug induced or secondary to general medical illness(es).

It may arise in association with personality disorders or it may occur in people who do not have any detectable illness. In fact, surveys have shown that the majority of people have had homicidal fantasies at some stage in their life.[2] Many theories have been proposed to explain this.

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

The reason I feel that manslaughter (and let's face it, it's really cold blooded murder) with a machine gun is a result of mental illness is because, in every case where we've seen it happen, the killers themselves have posted or left behind indications suggesting they were suffering from mental problems and emotional difficulties for quite awhile.

All I'm trying to say (and maybe I could have been clearer) is that, it's abnormal to have a desire to go get a machine gun and shoot people up. I would hope that is a truth that is both universal and easily understood. If not, we're in big trouble as a society.

But - i do appreciate your comments and I appreciate the feedback!

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is violence inherent in the system all throughout it, and yet we treat an individual employing violence towards various ends -- any end, really -- as inherently "wrong" when under any critical observation that's obviously bullshit. The government can call upon the police to come and murder you for any number of things, perceived or real, right or wrong. And some of the things "we" as a society have decided are right or wrong have changed dramatically over time. And violence is not necessarily someone shoving a gun in your face -- somebody losing their job and income, say, because they are a member of some outside group (gay, trans, the wrong color, the wrong religion, speak the wrong language, etc.) can be just as detrimental to their lives as putting a bullet in them. It's just slower, and nobody writes headlines about it.

The real factor is hate. Hate is everywhere in American society and we basically don't deal with it in any capacity whatsoever. It starts in gradeschool with all those bullies the administration does nothing about and just builds up from there. It's batshit insane to behave as if people faced by hate and aggression their entire lives from the government, their teachers, other members of society, politicians, megacorporations, the police, the talking heads on TV, etc., etc., etc. might eventually feel pushed to violence to ether defend themselves from or punish their perceived enemies.

I agree with your assessment that implicitly painting all other non-violent people who have mental health issues with the same brush is also hugely detrimental. If "only" cracked people enacted violence we would never have wars. A quick glance at history (or the current news) will tell you all you need to know about that.

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Well I disagree about the government calling on police to willfully murder you for any old reason. I've been around seven decades now, and I've never seen such an incidence. Yes I've seen many instances of police brutality, but I've also seen thousands more incidences of people brandishing weapons and acting like crazed hyenas on a rampage. I don't believe getting shot by police in that situation is the same thing as murdering just for fun.

And I agree with you, hate is everywhere in America and in fact, throughout the world. It does start early in life, and it gets amplified in school. I myself was a victim of intense physical bullying that left one of my hands broken and useless. But, I never was so corrupted by my hatred that I talked myself into the delusion that it justifies going after someone and KILLING them over it!! I understood even from an early age that two wrongs do not make a right, they only bring two more wrongs into the world.

And again I don't want to conflate mental illness with violence. I've had some issues and I've worked through them, so I know that help for mental problems is out there, and it's good and as healing as any medicine for the body could ever be.

Ok those are just some thoughts, I appreciate your feedback, it was very interesting!!

[–] lakemalcom10@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My argument is that there are seemingly rational reasons to engage in violence in the moment. So, rather than scapegoating the mentally ill, maybe, just maybe, we should look to why it seemed like a rational decision for a mass shooter to kill a bunch of people. What was their motivation? What problem were they trying to solve? And why did excessive violence seem like a good way to solve the problem?

You are describing how therapy works. Mental health care addresses the problem this exact way

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Too many ism's in your post. Not understandable for normal people.

But I agree to your headline argument.

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

It’s completely reasonable to kill a person in self-defense. Almost no one denies this. That is the primary justification for the proliferation of guns in American society. This is not a mental illness.

I respectfully disagree.

Ah, fuck it. No respect intended. The entire culture of the USA is having intercourse with legumes.

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is completely incorrect. By any definition and certainly by all standards of humanity, a desire to kill people IS indicative of mental illness. It is actually one of the few red flags that can get you instantly sent to a psychiatric facility for lock up if you mention it in a counseling session. For good reason. NO well adjusted and healthy individual wants to see other people get killed, or worse, facilitate their murder. That you can't see that truly scares me, because I see a lot of this inability to understand what is right from wrong in so many young people's beliefs these days, and it's truly disturbing. Hate is something we all encounter - but that doesn't mean we accept it or promote it. If you feel like hurting others, you NEED to treat it as you would any other illness! Your mind, like your body, deserves to be healed and get treatment where it can get it. And I have to agree with the other respondent here, every person who picks up a machine gun and goes out to kill people, ABSOLUTELY IS MENTALLY ILL. Because murder is ALWAYS an act of mental illness, no matter the motivation. It's normal to have hateful feelings and anger, but it's abnormal to do nothing about that and just let it keep festering. Please stop promoting the idea that murder is in any way an OKAY mind set. It is not.

[–] eatthecake@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I disagree with the notion that moral wrongness makes a behaviour a mental illness. Well adjusted people are still capable of violence. Do you believe every soldier or police officer is mentally ill? I think calling it all mental illness is a cop out for people who want to pretend humans have no bad side. Remember the Milgram experiment? I guess they were all mentally ill too.

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

It isn't moral "wrongness" that makes something a mental illness, but it is totally immoral to refuse to see the things that do make something a mental illness, and saying that well adjusted people inflict violence for fun is incorrect, it's untrue. Yes cops do respond violently to violent situations. Have you been a cop? I've worked with them. I see the kinds of horrific insanity and violence they themselves are confronted with daily. As for soldiers, I DO question their mentality, because it does take a suppression of the horror of violence to want to be a soldier. Some soldiers have told me, they were either going to have to join the military or end up in jail. I'm not saying they're all mentally ill - many of them have no desire to kill another human being. Those that do - are mentally ill in my book and always will be. And there's no argument about it with me. You cannot justify any desire to kill another human. And if you think you can - don't reply to me because I have no time for dealing with imbecility.

[–] WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You seem to be implying people murder because they desire to. There's definitely some people who do and perhaps that should qualify*. But a lot of people kill who don't want to kill and sometimes intentionally do so anyways and that's what OP seems to be talking about.

Take people working at slaughterhouses, for example, who kill regularly for pay. I don't think it takes mental illness to do such a thing. People regularly drive cars, for example, despite how many people they kill, most of which are caused indirectly via things like pollution. It doesn't mean someone is mentally ill for driving a car to the store. Of course most people don't think about the impact of their actions on the lives and health of others, so its not intentional killing. But are you suggesting someone who in conscientious of the impacts of their actions is mentally ill for driving anyways? Given the outcome is the same, I don't see why thinking "I know this is killing others, but my convenience is worth their sacrifice" to drive a car wouldn't be mentally ill while using a gun to kill someone who you don't want to kill in order to defend yourself or your loved ones would be consider mentally ill.

I see a lot of this inability to understand what is right from wrong in so many young people's beliefs these days

Illness shouldn't be conflated with immorality. Nothing in OP's comment suggests they don't think murder isn't wrong.

*Personally, I think illnesses in general should be based on how they affect the person with it, not others around them so I'd still disagree that a desire to murder would be indicative of illness, but that's a semantics thing that puts me at odds with the common usages, colloquially and medically. Someone carrying a bacteria but having no ill effects does not have an illness, even if they can spread it to others and those people do get ill as a result. Not sure why we treat mental illnesses differently. Socially unfit behaviors/desires should be classified differently and conflating the two leads to additional stigma for those who have illnesses. Not really relevant to this discussion though.

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

No I don't believe people kill because they desire to, although to be absolutely honest - some people do. The neighbor of this shooter was explaining on the news yesterady, about how people already knew to "steer clear of this guy." He'd drive around with bloody deer carcasses hanging out of truck, laughing about it. I truly believe some men hunt purely because they love to kill animals.

I also agree that working at a slaughterhouse, or for that matter, a morgue or any other place where you encounter grisly circumstances does NOT take being mentally ill - in fact, I'd say it probably takes a much tougher and stronger mentality than normal to work in such a place.

As for the car problem - I'm saying that cars are designed with safety features because car manufacturers knew people would get into accidents. They're not designed to be deadly, but people misuse them by driving while drunk or high, and speeding and not paying attention. That to me isn't necessarily mental illness, but it sure as heck is immature irresponsibility that may speak to other mental health issues going on.

Also, I'm not trying to conflate mental illness with immorality. I'm not saying people with mental health issues are all killers, either. I've had mental health problems with work stress, and I freely admit it. I got myself some great counseling, and found a better path in life.

But I still assert that it IS abnormal (mentally) to desire to see people get killed, kids, or adults, or otherwise. I truly believe a sound mind and a mature, well-adusted mind, finds such an idea repulsive and unthinkable. I know I could never live with myself if I killed another person, even if it was in self-defense. Anyway - maybe that's just me, and I hope others are as morally repulsed by killing as I am.

Just some thoughts. I do appreciate your feedback!!

[–] PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

By any definition and certainly by all standards of humanity, a desire to kill people IS indicative of mental illness. It is actually one of the few red flags that can get you instantly sent to a psychiatric facility for lock up if you mention it in a counseling session.

That the practice of mental health identifies the desire to kill people as being indicative of mental illness is a good argument. I'm just going to concede that point.

There's still the problem of one person not having the desire to kill someone to them...well, desiring to kill others. Being mental ill doesn't explain anything. In other words, even if we define a deeply humiliated person as being mentally for wanting acting to take lethal revenge, for example, characterizing them as mentally ill fails to explain the relationship between their humiliation and their will to murder.

It's at this point that I've realized the title of my post is wrong, and I'm actually arguing that mental illness doesn't explain excessive violence. So...uhh...yeah. We'll argue another day!

[–] tygerprints@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

That IS true, your point about the problem of mental illness not necessarily accounting for everything. I wouldn't say it accounts for nothing, because in many such cases it DOES play a role. Look at this situation, we're finding out the shooter did have mental health struggles, and WAS in psychiatric facility for a few weeks. True that doesn't necessarily mean, he's going to go kill people, nor am I saying that having mental struggles means you're going to go kill people.

But the revenge notion is perhaps the most chilling justification I can think of for wanting to murder another human. No matter the humiliation or depravity you've endured - you don't balance any "scales of justice" by going out and committing revenge.

In fact all you do is make twice the misery and twice the horror that already existed. And you've literally become the monster that you were hunting down, or worse. Which is why I never could agree that there is any "moral" lesson in Dexter or in Tales from the Crypt episodes.

But I do agree with you totally that mental illness does not always explain excessive violence. I appreciate your feedback on this!!