Putin seems to be the best salesman for both EU and NATO.
this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2022
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The National Democratic Institute in Ukraine developed and conducted a nationwide survey.
Hard to believe these numbers, coming from a country that is in a state of civil war since 2014.
I would be curious to see how well they were able to represent the totality of Ukraine's population if we're including the occupied regions. Those likely would have different characteristics. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if this more or less reflects the underlying sentiment fairly accurately, given that Russia has spent the last few months running tanks into Ukraine and indiscriminately lobbing missiles at shopping malls and apartment buildings.
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Russia is blindly lobbing inaccurate Soviet-era missiles into the heart of Ukraine with the knowledge that they'll be hitting tons of civilians. I don't know the exact thinking behind choosing that method of attack. I'm not sure that air attacks make that much sense. Ukraine already did pretty well in repelling air attacks in the opening stages of the war, so I doubt Russia wants to risk expensive aircraft to surface-to-air defenses. But it definitely isn't making its victims have warm fuzzy feelings towards Russia, and this poll reflects that.
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Artillery is not an exact science, if you believe the crap of surgical hit, you are very naive. Sure there are progress but you can still have 100m of error rate.
This wasn't 100m of inaccuracy. Russia shot artillery into Kyiv, into civilian residential areas. They shot into an area with a shopping mall, then lied about it being "nearly empty".
What is the sample?
If you'll refer to my initial comment, I was expressing some doubt about this. I'm guessing the Donbass and Crimea were not included.
Ah yeah, 90% support for the government policy in a county where all the opposition is banned and the secret service disappears people who have wrong opinions.
I thought your camp was all about secret police
It wouldn't be out of line if we assume the Donbass region was not included. After all, the average Ukrainian has had their life turned upside down by the Russian invasion and occupation. Like with Sweden and Finland, it would be natural to be attracted to inclusion in a treaty organization that would provide protection going forward.
Regarding the opposition, even the supposedly "pro-Russian" parties had turned pretty anti-Russia once the invasion started. I'm still mystified why there isn't more pressure from the nations backing the Ukrainian government to return to the principals of a liberal democracy. This is no time to resort to authoritarianism.
You don't know anything about Ukraine. Full stop.
What am I wrong about here? I've got a few basic facts that I'm using to make guesses that would explain how this outcome would be arrived at.
Literally about everything. Your claim that Ukrainians outside of Donbass are uniformly pro regime is not based in reality. This is likely true for parts of western Ukraine, but certainly not true for Ukraine as a whole. Especially places like Odessa or Kharkov.
Sweden and Finland are not gaining any actual protection going forward. In fact, they've put themselves in a much more dangerous position by renouncing neutrality. As many experts have repeatedly explained, the reason Ukraine is in the situation that it's in is precisely because of its ambitions to integrate into NATO.
I strongly encourage you to read this report from the Royal United Services Institute in UK that clearly explains why NATO cannot offer any real protection to countries.
The reason there isn't any pressure from the governments backing Ukraine to return to "freedom and democracy" is because those governments do not give a shit about these things. The west has consistently propped up some of the most heinous regimes known to man.
The basic facts are entirely contrary to the statements you make.
Your claim that Ukrainians outside of Donbass are uniformly pro regime is not based in reality.
I claimed that it's probable that the average Ukrainian, whose life has been put into turmoil by Russia's invasion, may not have many warm fuzzy feelings towards the government attacking their country and may be in favor joining NATO to prevent future attacks.
Especially places like Odessa or Kharkov.
Those cities have been bombed extensively by Russia as part of the invasion. Even if there was once much interest in those cities to chart a more pro-Russia course, I doubt there is much anymore. Just because a city has primarily Russian speakers doesn't mean they will love Russia when Russia rains bombs on their homes.
I strongly encourage you to read this report from the Royal United Services Institute in UK that clearly explains why NATO cannot offer any real protection to countries.
It's a good report, but it doesn't say that. It just says that for a longer haul war, the US especially is going to need to change its strategy around ammunition
I claimed that it’s probable that the average Ukrainian, whose life has been put into turmoil by Russia’s invasion, may not have many warm fuzzy feelings towards the government attacking their country and may be in favor joining NATO to prevent future attacks.
You assume that out of ignorance.
Those cities have been bombed extensively by Russia as part of the invasion. Even if there was once much interest in those cities to chart a more pro-Russia course, I doubt there is much anymore. Just because a city has primarily Russian speakers doesn’t mean they will love Russia when Russia rains bombs on their homes.
Here's what people as they themselves put it.
It’s a good report, but it doesn’t say that. It just says that for a longer haul war, the US especially is going to need to change its strategy around ammunition
What it very plainly says is that the west lacks industrial capacity for the kind of war that Russia is currently waging. If you don't understand that, then read the report again.
You assume that out of ignorance.
Then explain to me why Ukrainians would like being invaded and bombed relentlessly. Please, I'm all ears.
Here’s what people as they themselves put it.
That guy is embedded with the the Russia army and goes on Infowars. He is simply an untrustworthy source, a propagandist.
Edit: More from this video.
What it very plainly says is that the west lacks industrial capacity for the kind of war that Russia is currently waging.
The West currently lacks that specific industrial capacity. It could definitely shift production to counter Russia, especially as part of a longer war.
Then explain to me why Ukrainians would like being invaded and bombed relentlessly. Please, I’m all ears.
The people themselves explain it in the video I linked. Here's the ethnic breakdown of Ukraine for you. People in the east consider themselves to be occupied
That guy is embedded with the the Russia army and goes on Infowars. He is simply an untrustworthy source, a propagandist.
The interview is just the people telling what they think. Imagine thinking that's propaganda as opposed to whatever you're guzzling.
The West currently lacks that specific industrial capacity. It could definitely shift production to counter Russia, especially as part of a longer war.
No it can't, you can't create an industrial base overnight and anybody who's not an utter imbecile understands that.
People in the east consider themselves to be occupied
Now who's assuming?
The interview is just the people telling what they think. Imagine thinking that’s propaganda as opposed to whatever you’re guzzling.
Has it ever occurred to you that those interviews can be faked? His Russian handlers tell him to head down a road, and lo and behold there is someone there to tell you about all the Ukrainian atrocities! I mean, sure it's just a Russian soldier or separatist militia member that they stuck some civilian clothes on, but those are just details.
Now who’s assuming?
I'm not assuming anything. This is what the people there say, and that's why we're not seeing any actual resistance to LPR and DPR forces taking cities the way we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan when US occupied those countries.
Has it ever occurred to you that those interviews can be faked?
Has it ever occurred to you that you might be a victim of propaganda?
This is what the people there say
That can be faked easily.
This is what the people there say, and that’s why we’re not seeing any actual resistance to LPR and DPR forces taking cities the way we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan when US occupied those countries.
I'm sure Mariupol welcomed the Russians as liberators! Well, what's left of it.
Has it ever occurred to you that you might be a victim of propaganda?
I try to keep a reasonable level of skepticism. But I'm certainly not trusting an easily faked YouTube video from someone who is obviously a propagandist spouting Russian talking points.
That can be faked easily.
Unlike the propaganda you consume presumably.
I’m sure Mariupol welcomed the Russians as liberators! Well, what’s left of it.
Have you seen videos from Mariupol after it was taken? What you don't seem to get is that people from LPR and DPR are the ones doing most of the work on the ground, not Russia. These are people who live in these areas and they're not seen as occupiers.
I try to keep a reasonable level of skepticism.
You regurgitate pure propaganda in every one of your comments. According to you people like Chomsky are Russian propagandists.
Have you seen videos from Mariupol after it was taken?
Have you seen pictures of Mariupol before and after it was bombed to shit? Russia did that, there is no escaping that reality.
According to you people like Chomsky are Russian propagandists.
The fuck? I disagree with Chomsky, but I never called him a propagandist. Patrick Lancaster and his ilk are propagandists.
Have you seen pictures of Mariupol before and after it was bombed to shit? Russia did that, there is no escaping that reality.
Yeah, stuff gets bombed during wars. The reality is that Russia dropped far less bombs than US has in any recent conflict.
The fuck? I disagree with Chomsky, but I never called him a propagandist. Patrick Lancaster and his ilk are propagandists.
Chomsky has exact same position I have on the war. Since you claim what I say is Russian propaganda, then Chomsky must be one by extension. What Lancaster reports is what's actually happening on the ground. You dismiss that because it doesn't fit your narrative.
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That map supports what I said you dumb fuck.
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Oh look at you little Ukraine understander there. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want there, but the reality of the situation is pretty clear. Imbecilic propagandists like you are going to have their work cut out for them going forward explaining what's happening. Your whole narrative is collapsing and it's becoming more obvious by the day.
I think you've been watching so much Russian-aligned propaganda about Ukraine that you've hit the Dunning-Kruger effect. You're more than willing to call other people idiots, but it sounds like you've been feeding for hours at the trough of outright Russian propaganda. Not news media with some bias, literal government propaganda. All governments involved do it to some degree, but it doesn't mean you have to accept it. At this point it seems like you're not even considering whether you're being manipulated, as long as the manipulator is aligned with Russia.
You should really take a look in a mirror someday. Everything you've been claiming about the conflict has turned out to be false, yet here you are telling me with a straight face that I'm the one suffering from Dunning-Kruger.
The facts are that western powers ran a coup in Ukraine that set the ground for the current events. Ukraine has been in a civil war since 2014, and majority of the people in eastern Ukraine do not support western backed regime.
This regime never had a chance to win a war against Russia, and all western support for the regime is simply prolonging the agony for people in Ukraine. Useful idiots, such as yourself, are helping prolong western public support for this nightmare.
Maybe you should take your own advice and ask where you yourself are being manipulated, and why the war is not turning out the way you thought it would.
Everything you’ve been claiming about the conflict has turned out to be false
Remember when you were claiming that it wouldn't happen at all? And I was more cautious, saying that it was too early to call it either way? Then Russia invaded.
The facts are that western powers ran a coup in Ukraine that set the ground for the current events.
No, they really didn't. I don't care how many times people post that one transcript, the 2014 overthrow was carried out by Ukrainians. The only public record shows that foreign governments had relatively minor involvement on the periphery.
majority of the people in eastern Ukraine do not support western backed regime
You sure? I know the Russian backed separatists claim this, but is this actually known to be true? Hard to tell when there's a combination of an occupying force and separatists that were armed by that force. Also, some of those cities in eastern Ukraine that you're saying don't support the current government were just getting the shit beat out of them by Russia. Assuming that their support is entirely up to their ethnicity and native language seems a little presumptuous.
This regime never had a chance to win a war against Russia, and all western support for the regime is simply prolonging the agony for people in Ukraine. Useful idiots, such as yourself, are helping prolong western public support for this nightmare.
Well I want Russia to get hurt bad by this war. If they're not, they're just going to come back for more and more and more as evidenced by the weak response to Georgia and Crimea. I want this to be this generation's Afghanistan, their US-Vietnam War. A war that makes a whole generation a little more hesitant to waltz across their neighbor's borders and start murdering.
Maybe you should take your own advice and ask where you yourself are being manipulated, and why the war is not turning out the way you thought it would.
I don't know how this war will come out. You frequently claim how it's going to inevitably going to come out, but I've shied away from that. There are too many variables. And I know full well that people are trying to manipulate me, and sometimes I make mistakes.
Remember when you were claiming that it wouldn’t happen at all? And I was more cautious, saying that it was too early to call it either way? Then Russia invaded.
Sure, I didn't think there would be a war. I've stated my reasons for that clearly.
No, they really didn’t. I don’t care how many times people post that one transcript, the 2014 overthrow was carried out by Ukrainians. The only public record shows that foreign governments had relatively minor involvement on the periphery.
Yes, they really do. Every serious person in the west including people like Chomsky, Mearsheimer, and now even Kissinger say this. The fact that you continue to deny this shows just how divorced from reality you are on your media diet of propaganda.
You sure?
Yeah, I'm sure. My mother's side of the family is from Ukraine, I know people who actually live in Ukraine. The fact that westerners like you who don't speak the language, and know nothing about the country continue bleating nonsense is incredibly infuriating to watch.
Well I want Russia to get hurt bad by this war
They won't be. This is clear to anyone who understands anything about his conflict. On the other hand, the west is being hurt tremendously by this war already. You can keep dreaming of your fantasies, but as everything else you say, they're divorced from reality.
I don’t know how this war will come out. You frequently claim how it’s going to inevitably going to come out, but I’ve shied away from that. There are too many variables. And I know full well that people are trying to manipulate me, and sometimes I make mistakes.
I simply follow what actual military, political, and economic experts say. None of them are shying from predicting the outcome of this.
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Trying to homogenize a diverse country with millions of people that's been in a civil war for the past 8 years is the only propaganda tactic here.
Again, literally no neutral country has been attacked. In fact, NATO has been the one attacking countries in the past 30 years, including Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Libya. You're a shameless liar.
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You tried to homogenize Ukraine, and you can bleat all you want here, but everybody with a couple of brain cells to bang together understands you're full of shit.
Meanwhile, not joining an aggressive military alliance is literally what being neutral means. You're so bad at doing propaganda.
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This is right after Ukraine banned the main opposition party and seized all their assets. Democracy!
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Looks like nobody is buying your bullshit here.
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It amuses me to see the Americans and their puppet states (NATO) giving their opinion, basically repeating what their government says.
Lamentablemente Estados Unidos y Ucrania ya ganaron la guerra de propaganda.