this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2022
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Ah yeah, 90% support for the government policy in a county where all the opposition is banned and the secret service disappears people who have wrong opinions.
I thought your camp was all about secret police
Not much of a counterpoint is it?
Counterpoint to what?
To the fact that opinion polls in a country where nazis hold power and disappear people aren't worth the paper they're written on.
It wouldn't be out of line if we assume the Donbass region was not included. After all, the average Ukrainian has had their life turned upside down by the Russian invasion and occupation. Like with Sweden and Finland, it would be natural to be attracted to inclusion in a treaty organization that would provide protection going forward.
Regarding the opposition, even the supposedly "pro-Russian" parties had turned pretty anti-Russia once the invasion started. I'm still mystified why there isn't more pressure from the nations backing the Ukrainian government to return to the principals of a liberal democracy. This is no time to resort to authoritarianism.
You don't know anything about Ukraine. Full stop.
What am I wrong about here? I've got a few basic facts that I'm using to make guesses that would explain how this outcome would be arrived at.
Literally about everything. Your claim that Ukrainians outside of Donbass are uniformly pro regime is not based in reality. This is likely true for parts of western Ukraine, but certainly not true for Ukraine as a whole. Especially places like Odessa or Kharkov.
Sweden and Finland are not gaining any actual protection going forward. In fact, they've put themselves in a much more dangerous position by renouncing neutrality. As many experts have repeatedly explained, the reason Ukraine is in the situation that it's in is precisely because of its ambitions to integrate into NATO.
I strongly encourage you to read this report from the Royal United Services Institute in UK that clearly explains why NATO cannot offer any real protection to countries.
The reason there isn't any pressure from the governments backing Ukraine to return to "freedom and democracy" is because those governments do not give a shit about these things. The west has consistently propped up some of the most heinous regimes known to man.
The basic facts are entirely contrary to the statements you make.
I claimed that it's probable that the average Ukrainian, whose life has been put into turmoil by Russia's invasion, may not have many warm fuzzy feelings towards the government attacking their country and may be in favor joining NATO to prevent future attacks.
Those cities have been bombed extensively by Russia as part of the invasion. Even if there was once much interest in those cities to chart a more pro-Russia course, I doubt there is much anymore. Just because a city has primarily Russian speakers doesn't mean they will love Russia when Russia rains bombs on their homes.
It's a good report, but it doesn't say that. It just says that for a longer haul war, the US especially is going to need to change its strategy around ammunition
You assume that out of ignorance.
Here's what people as they themselves put it.
What it very plainly says is that the west lacks industrial capacity for the kind of war that Russia is currently waging. If you don't understand that, then read the report again.
Then explain to me why Ukrainians would like being invaded and bombed relentlessly. Please, I'm all ears.
That guy is embedded with the the Russia army and goes on Infowars. He is simply an untrustworthy source, a propagandist.
Edit: More from this video.
The West currently lacks that specific industrial capacity. It could definitely shift production to counter Russia, especially as part of a longer war.
The people themselves explain it in the video I linked. Here's the ethnic breakdown of Ukraine for you. People in the east consider themselves to be occupied
The interview is just the people telling what they think. Imagine thinking that's propaganda as opposed to whatever you're guzzling.
No it can't, you can't create an industrial base overnight and anybody who's not an utter imbecile understands that.
Now who's assuming?
Has it ever occurred to you that those interviews can be faked? His Russian handlers tell him to head down a road, and lo and behold there is someone there to tell you about all the Ukrainian atrocities! I mean, sure it's just a Russian soldier or separatist militia member that they stuck some civilian clothes on, but those are just details.
I'm not assuming anything. This is what the people there say, and that's why we're not seeing any actual resistance to LPR and DPR forces taking cities the way we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan when US occupied those countries.
Has it ever occurred to you that you might be a victim of propaganda?
That can be faked easily.
I'm sure Mariupol welcomed the Russians as liberators! Well, what's left of it.
I try to keep a reasonable level of skepticism. But I'm certainly not trusting an easily faked YouTube video from someone who is obviously a propagandist spouting Russian talking points.
Unlike the propaganda you consume presumably.
Have you seen videos from Mariupol after it was taken? What you don't seem to get is that people from LPR and DPR are the ones doing most of the work on the ground, not Russia. These are people who live in these areas and they're not seen as occupiers.
You regurgitate pure propaganda in every one of your comments. According to you people like Chomsky are Russian propagandists.
Have you seen pictures of Mariupol before and after it was bombed to shit? Russia did that, there is no escaping that reality.
The fuck? I disagree with Chomsky, but I never called him a propagandist. Patrick Lancaster and his ilk are propagandists.
Yeah, stuff gets bombed during wars. The reality is that Russia dropped far less bombs than US has in any recent conflict.
Chomsky has exact same position I have on the war. Since you claim what I say is Russian propaganda, then Chomsky must be one by extension. What Lancaster reports is what's actually happening on the ground. You dismiss that because it doesn't fit your narrative.
That map supports what I said you dumb fuck.
Oh look at you little Ukraine understander there. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want there, but the reality of the situation is pretty clear. Imbecilic propagandists like you are going to have their work cut out for them going forward explaining what's happening. Your whole narrative is collapsing and it's becoming more obvious by the day.
I think you've been watching so much Russian-aligned propaganda about Ukraine that you've hit the Dunning-Kruger effect. You're more than willing to call other people idiots, but it sounds like you've been feeding for hours at the trough of outright Russian propaganda. Not news media with some bias, literal government propaganda. All governments involved do it to some degree, but it doesn't mean you have to accept it. At this point it seems like you're not even considering whether you're being manipulated, as long as the manipulator is aligned with Russia.
You should really take a look in a mirror someday. Everything you've been claiming about the conflict has turned out to be false, yet here you are telling me with a straight face that I'm the one suffering from Dunning-Kruger.
The facts are that western powers ran a coup in Ukraine that set the ground for the current events. Ukraine has been in a civil war since 2014, and majority of the people in eastern Ukraine do not support western backed regime.
This regime never had a chance to win a war against Russia, and all western support for the regime is simply prolonging the agony for people in Ukraine. Useful idiots, such as yourself, are helping prolong western public support for this nightmare.
Maybe you should take your own advice and ask where you yourself are being manipulated, and why the war is not turning out the way you thought it would.
Remember when you were claiming that it wouldn't happen at all? And I was more cautious, saying that it was too early to call it either way? Then Russia invaded.
No, they really didn't. I don't care how many times people post that one transcript, the 2014 overthrow was carried out by Ukrainians. The only public record shows that foreign governments had relatively minor involvement on the periphery.
You sure? I know the Russian backed separatists claim this, but is this actually known to be true? Hard to tell when there's a combination of an occupying force and separatists that were armed by that force. Also, some of those cities in eastern Ukraine that you're saying don't support the current government were just getting the shit beat out of them by Russia. Assuming that their support is entirely up to their ethnicity and native language seems a little presumptuous.
Well I want Russia to get hurt bad by this war. If they're not, they're just going to come back for more and more and more as evidenced by the weak response to Georgia and Crimea. I want this to be this generation's Afghanistan, their US-Vietnam War. A war that makes a whole generation a little more hesitant to waltz across their neighbor's borders and start murdering.
I don't know how this war will come out. You frequently claim how it's going to inevitably going to come out, but I've shied away from that. There are too many variables. And I know full well that people are trying to manipulate me, and sometimes I make mistakes.
Sure, I didn't think there would be a war. I've stated my reasons for that clearly.
Yes, they really do. Every serious person in the west including people like Chomsky, Mearsheimer, and now even Kissinger say this. The fact that you continue to deny this shows just how divorced from reality you are on your media diet of propaganda.
Yeah, I'm sure. My mother's side of the family is from Ukraine, I know people who actually live in Ukraine. The fact that westerners like you who don't speak the language, and know nothing about the country continue bleating nonsense is incredibly infuriating to watch.
They won't be. This is clear to anyone who understands anything about his conflict. On the other hand, the west is being hurt tremendously by this war already. You can keep dreaming of your fantasies, but as everything else you say, they're divorced from reality.
I simply follow what actual military, political, and economic experts say. None of them are shying from predicting the outcome of this.
LMFAO
Trying to homogenize a diverse country with millions of people that's been in a civil war for the past 8 years is the only propaganda tactic here.
Again, literally no neutral country has been attacked. In fact, NATO has been the one attacking countries in the past 30 years, including Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Libya. You're a shameless liar.
You tried to homogenize Ukraine, and you can bleat all you want here, but everybody with a couple of brain cells to bang together understands you're full of shit.
Meanwhile, not joining an aggressive military alliance is literally what being neutral means. You're so bad at doing propaganda.
LMAO
I'm just imagining spidermanpointing.jpg reading this thread.
This is right after Ukraine banned the main opposition party and seized all their assets. Democracy!
Looks like nobody is buying your bullshit here.
Yeah that must be it.