this post was submitted on 02 Jun 2023
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"Over" with Putin having gotten what he wants after killing millions of Ukrainians and still occupying their land. So no, fuck Putin and fuck anyone who supports his insane bloody quest for glory.
As Obama clearly explained years ago, there's only one way this war can end:
The only question is how many people are going to die in the process. Fuck anybody who supports continuation of this war. All the west is doing is prolonging the suffering. In the end this will end the same way as every other noble adventure the west was involved in. It's absolutely incredible to see that people are utterly incapable of learning from prior experience.
(edit) - Wow it's only been like 24 hours since I've been on Lemmy and I've been in arguments with and been down voted by tankies and fascist supporters.
There were plenty of people back in the day that said the U.S. should stay out of Europe and the Pacific. That we should just let the Nazis and Japan do what they pleased. Those people were either cowards or traitors.
In the end, it's clear one country is the aggressor and must be stopped before they wipe out the other. Your argument boils down to "nah, fuck them Ukranians, let them die because Putin wants it". Nope.
It's Putin's war. He can end it when he likes by getting the fuck out of Ukraine.
The US was involved in WWII from the beginning. They were just on the side of the Nazis. The State only intervened openly in the end to prevent the spread of communism. Then they made sure to rescue as many Nazis as possible and put them in positions of power in West Germany, the EU, and NATO, etc.
Since that war, the US has been doing 'what they pleased', exactly what the Nazis and what Japan would've done. To this day the US tortures, runs concentration camps, and brutally oppresses billions of people around the world.
Those who argued for the US to stay out were right then, and are still right today.
Gotcha, we'll put you down in the "should have let the Nazis win" column then.
I think you've seriously misunderstood what I said.
I'm really struggling to see how you have interpreted support for the Nazis from this comment.
Nevertheless, this is clearly an unconstructive conversation, so I shall end it here.
No that's not what I was trying to say. Almost the exact opposite.
I think, perhaps, we're talking past one another.
I was clearly not referring to any US anti-fascism movement or to anyone who wanted to intervene earlier to stop Hitler. I'm fairly sure I clarified that I am not sympathetic to Nazis. I wish they had never got a foothold and I wish they were stopped sooner.
I was referring to those in the US who materially and ideologically supported the fascists. If they had not got involved, the Nazis may not have got a foothold and they may have been stopped sooner.
The US did eventually help to end the war and defeat the Nazi party's rule. Commendable stuff.
The US state was motivated by a desire to stop the Soviets at Berlin, however, rather than to stop fascism. After the war, in the same spirit, the US intervened to rescue Nazis and install them in positions of power as a bulwark against communism. Rescuing 'ex'-Nazis and giving them command of NATO forces was a bad idea.
I thought this was clear in what I wrote before, but I see how some of it was implied rather than explicit.
How could you possibly expect anyone to gleam "By my very narrow and specific definition of what 'getting into the war' means... somethingsomething the people who were against the American Nazis who wanted to aid the German Nazis were right?" out of what you wrote???
At either rate, yes we're in agreement there. That's not anything like the argument that this thread was about though.
I recommend reading this book produced by US military, it makes it pretty clear that allies played a minor role in WW2. USSR was who defeated the nazis:
a few quotes from it
Meanwhile, calling this Putin's war is an incredibly reductionist. The war is a result of tensions that were largely escalated by NATO, and plenty of experts in the west have been warning about this for many years now. Here's what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/
https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Academics, such as John Mearsheimer, gave talks explaining why NATO actions would ultimately lead to conflict this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
These and many other voices were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
What's going to happen in the end is that US is going to stop funding the coup regime in Ukraine just like they stopped propping up their puppet regimes in Vietnam and Afghanistan. This is likely to happen soon because election season is coming up, and Biden isn't going to want to have this debacle hanging over him. At that point the war will be over. It's absolutely stunning to see that grown ass adults can't understand this.
Or, we'll bolster Ukraine's military until they kick the shit out of the pathetic remains of Russia, they'll rise up and kill Putin, and then struggle for the next few decades to get out of the dark ages that Putin sent them back into.
In the end I don't really give a shit what a tankie bot account has to say, so have a day.
Can't wait to see what tune you'll be singing next year when your regime abandons Ukraine.
lol Belgograd goes brrr
If by that you mean Ukraine losing a bunch of people and equipment to accomplish nothing then sure.
If by that you mean Russia losing a bunch of people fighting for and against Russia then sure. Belgograd referendum when?
Yeah, you can wake me up when that happens. Oh and just so everyone can be clear on who your friends are https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/05/27/stvi-m27.html
Just so everyone can be clear on who your friends are: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukraine-investigates-video-purported-to-show-soldiers-beheading
Projection!
I’m just parroting back the exact same thing people are saying to me, but from the other side. I didn’t start insinuating support for one side or the other in the war in Ukraine made someone a friend of people they don’t know.
I love how you just keep doubling down on being a friend of literal fascists https://strangesounds.org/2022/03/war-crimes-from-ukrainian-army-are-starting-to-fill-the-internet-and-they-are-disgusting-warning-shocking-images-and-videos.html
I’m not a friend of fascists. I actively work against fascists and the far right in my local community.
Also that might be one of the least credible websites I have ever seen in my life. It’s not even a news website, it’s nominally dedicated to the “strange trumpet sounds heralding the Rapture that have been heard in the skies throughout the world”. If you’re going to spout off misinformation at least take the time to stand up a website that looks professional and claims to be some sort of human rights watchdog or something, because that bit of bottled schizophrenia is not it.
You literally just voiced support for literal fascists doing terrorism in Belgorod. And war crimes of Ukraine are well documented, even amnesty international acknowledges them. And of course, these include execution of POWs.
The military leaders who ordered troops to garrison in illegal areas should be arrested, charged, and tried in an impartial court.
Any Ukrainian soldiers who killed POWs should be arrested, charged, and tried in an impartial court.
War crimes are not ok, and have been committed by both sides. Any perpetrator of a war crime, regardless of allegiance, should be tried and appropriately punished if convicted.
Putin can end this war by pulling back his troops. I do not support the invasion of sovereign nations, just as I don’t support the violation of an individual’s sovereignty over themselves.
It's pretty telling that western media has been studiously ignoring war crimes committed by Ukraine. In fact, we never see western war crimes punished, if the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. Until the west starts holding itself accountable, it has no moral ground to judge others.
This will obviously not happen, so I don't know why people keep repeating this as if it has any meaning. The reality of the situation is that Russia will fight this war to the end, and all the west is doing is prolonging the war which results in increased death and suffering. The goal of prolonging the war is not to help Ukraine but to weaken Russia. This was the stated goal in the RAND study before the war, and was recently reiterated by none other than US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin.
Finally, Ukraine lost sovereignty when the west ran a coup there in 2014 and installed a far right regime in place of a democratically elected government.
Why does Ukraine bear all the responsibility in ending a war started by Russia?
That’s rich, coming from someone who lives in the West. To be fair explicitly clear, I don’t agree with the lack of accountability in the west. I don’t agree with Bush’s foreign policy, I don’t agree with the expansion of drone strikes by Obama, I don’t agree with the Iranian assassination ordered by Trump, and I don’t agree with Biden’s use of drone strikes.
You seem to be under the impression that the sins of the US absolve Putin and his troops. It just makes them all terrible. I can see that we’ll never agree to anything here, so I’ll bring some clojure to it on my end at least and just stop responding. I can’t say I’ve enjoyed our conversation, but I’m appreciative of the opportunity to have had it.
This isn't about bearing responsibility, it's about dealing with the real world. Ukraine is not able to defeat Russia in this war. That's just a simple fact. Whatever the west is doing is not going to change the outcome. You don't have to take my word for it. This is literally what Obama stated back in 2016:
I've never stated anything of the sort. You seem to equate honestly discussing the causes for the war with moral support.
I have 2 quick questions 1 how can "Tankies" communists, Marxist Lenninists, The most anti-Facist folks you will ever meet facist supporters?
Second how exactly is this Putin's war, as far as I can tell it is Ukraine who violated the Minsk accords for years and that was the inciting incident for this whole thing, now if you could show me how I am wrong I am all ears, but I feel it is irresponsible to pin an entire war on the president of a nation, let alone the one who did not violate the previous agreement