this post was submitted on 29 Mar 2023
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Cuba is extremely poor and most people would flee to any more advanced economy regardless of it's moral values for the opportunity to have a better life.
Nobody said that the struggle against a despotic empire would be easy.
The Cuban people are smart. Even cursory investigation reveals that Cubas centrally planned economy is a failure and the people are sick of it. The whole 'Communism vs Capitalism' debate is immaterial and a luxury for academics.
A cursory investigation reveals the opposite to be true. Cuba managed to thrive despite all the efforts of US to topple communism there, and the government is broadly supported by the people. Thinking that the debate regarding who should own the means of production and whose interest they should be operated in is immaterial is an incredibly idiotic statement.
Please spend sometime to educate yourself on the subject you're attempting to debate instead of making a fool of yourself in public.
Lol you and I have very different definitions of 'thrive'. I assume you're talking about living off of subsidies from other countries while miserably failing to produce and distribute goods at a level that anyway equates with the rest of the modern world?
No worries. I can take a 'shaming' from you I'll survive. I can't say the same for Cuban refugees trying to escape on john boats and other improvised watercrafts. I assume they are trying to reach the US to tell us how awesome Cuba is.
In the real world people of Cuba are more satisfied with their government than Americans.
And it's not hard to understand why given that a quarter of the population is starving in US. 64% of Americans live hand to mouth. 37% work two full time jobs, and an average person has around 100k debt. If that's your idea of a functioning economy you should get your head checked.
If you're looking for a Western apologist look elsewhere. That being said 'food insecurity' is in no way comparable to starving. We have the fattest poor people on the planet. There are a million and one ways to get food in the United States regardless of how broke you are. Also the inflation driving the 'hand to mouth' argument in the article is driven primarily by financial irresponsibility by the central planners in the US. Money printer go brrr.
The "overemployment" article is referring specifically to remote workers. That's not to keep up with inflation. That's free money. A ton of people started doing that during covid. Ive been at companies where they had to fire people because they weren't doing anything and just collecting a check. It was a huge joke online for over a year. I'm not denying that there are people that work two jobs but a lot of that is because they are competing with an endless deluge of low skilled labor pouring into the country everyday.
The problem with American debt is most of it is unsecured student debt. 300k mortgage debt is healthy if you have collateral. The solution is simple. Don't give 18 year olds 100k loans. When the government guarantees a loan for anything the price for that thing will increase dramatically in an economy driven by greed.
I'm the first one to say that the US should be more protective of the worker and stymie limitless immigration that undercuts the value of work but Communism or whatever term you feel like using to justify a centrally planned economy is equally wrong in the opposite direction. The answer is unsatisfying but it's a mix. How that mix is proportioned will depend on the culture of the people and what they value. Then as a people they can decide what to incentivize. At some point though you have to give individuals the ability to reap what they personally have sowed even if it is more (or less) than their neighbor.
You can spin it however you like, but the reality is that a quarter of people in US don't have enough food to eat. There are tent cities all across the country due to rampant homelessness. Healthcare in inaccessible and regularly bankrupts people. Cuba has none of these problems. In fact, Cuba ranks as world’s most sustainable developed country.
Communism works while capitalism creates failed states like the US. That's the reality of the world.
@yogthos @Manmoth Is #Cuba a better place to live than the #USA?
You have to specify for whom US or Cuba is a better place to live. Millions of people in US have far worse lives than people in Cuba despite the fact that US has an incomparable amount of wealth. Given the resources that Cuba has available to it, there is no question that Cuba does a much better job than US ensuring that they're used to improve the lives of the majority.
Not for me or anyone I know. USA is pretty sweet especially in rural areas.
https://diabetesjournals.org/diabetes/article/60/11/2667/33452/Poverty-and-Obesity-in-the-U-S
Cuba has an innovative housing plan. Evict people and bulldoze their houses to the ground.
The anthills in my backyard are sustainably developed too. Cuba's crumbling infrastructure is on par with the most retrograde, backwaters of the first and second world. A power infrastructure with rolling blackouts and 60,000 cars for 11 million people. Nothing is more sustainable than living, more or less, in the past. It's also no surprise because eco-tourism is the only moneymaker except for, maybe, cigars.
I'm not going to convince you that Cuba is defunct, repressive kleptocracy and you're not going to convince me that Cuba's ideals somehow transcend the record numbers of people trying to gtfo
Cuba isnt the same as truly tragic country like Haiti but it's pretty bad. The people are educated but they are destitute and have no opportunities. Repealing sanctions would help but it won't fix the cause of their woes. I hope for the best. They are our neighbors.
You keep on doing the coping there. You're a real champ at it. At least we can agree that what US has done to Cuba and Haiti is indeed tragic. If only these countries were allowed to develop without the oppression of the empire. Good thing US is headed for the collapse, so the rest of the world can finally breathe.
Not sure which part of what I said is 'cope' but okay.
Re: American collapse I expect it will be less of a collapse and more of a controlled descent ala a hang glider.
don't be surprised when your expectations aren't met
Lmao. Don't worry about my expectations. You're the one who's going to be really fucking bummed when you find out a post-American hegemony world is more of the same old shit.
Like I said, whatever helps you cope.
Copium not needed. Everything is good on my end. Feel free to have my share though I think you'll need it.
Nah, I don't think I will. We're headed for a whole different world where the parasitic leech that's been sucking lifeblood from the planet is about to shrivel and die finally. Liberalism and capitalism are about to be the thing of the past.
Except that if the US completely collapsed China would most likely take its place and China is a hypercapitalist uniparty state. The incentive to make the favorable unilateral deals with smaller countries will be removed. They would over time opt for coercion via soft power. Unlike the US they would not grant citizenship to foreigners because they would want to remain as culturally, physiologically and ethnically homogenous as possible. They wont embrace diversity nor will they embrace dissent. This will become harder as the Chinese people become used to wealth. They would be less neurotic than the US but would of course still actively work against the interests of a nation with designs on being their rival. The population pyramid will hit them in about 15-20 years and they will have to support far more elderly than they have the ability to. As a result, they will become more aggressive on the international stage. China's greatness will not suffer if there are resources for the taking that will solve the problem. They will bribe leaders of puppet states for access to resources and exploit the country to fund their deficits. Because the yuan (or renmibi) will likely be the worlds reserve currency they will have the exclusive ability to export their inflation and outspend any nation during wartime. They would be foolish not to use this tool against their enemies.
Things might be good for 80-200 years but once the ruling generation is completely disconnected from struggle they will become more selfish. The nation will begin arcing towards collapse.
At no point would they ever care about the sharing the spoils of their success with the workers of the world, consider eliminating the idea of a nation state or abandoning a debt-based system of technocratic slavery. Why would they?
I'm sure after the crash of the Chinese Republic the revolution will take place and we'll be rid of the blood-sucking leeches once and for all... right?
so much projection happening here
All of human history tells us that human beings are self serving creatures. There is no reason for a society with every possible advantage to arbitrarily relenquish its superiority for 'muh communism'. It's a pipe dream.
People being selfish simply means we need to design systems where acting in your own interest aligns with the common interest. Communism accomplishes this far better than any other system that's been tried. No system will ever be perfect, but it's clear that some systems achieve better results than others.
Communism's only lasting acheivement is causing 70 million of it's own people to starve to death in the 20th century due to malice and incompetence. Strategic positions are filled to solidify power not meritocratically. It incentivizes people with pervasive fear. Fear of sureveillance and secret police. Fear of going to the gulag, being shot in the street or being sent to the frontlines of a war without a weapon. God help you if there is a color revolution and you happen to wear glasses. You are a slave and there is no way out. You have nothing to call your own, no aspirations just hopelessness. Communism has been tried. It doesn't work.
In a world where no system is perfect saying that Communism is the least maligned is laughable. We have over a 100 years of data at this point. Data that we can access and process due to the information technology revolution driven almost entirely by the flawed but extremely innovative west.
Allowing people to reap the fruits of their own labor is aligned with the common interest because it gives people some sense of self sovereignty which, in the end, is what everyone wants. You can invest your wealth in initiatives you find valuable and grow your wealth while fueling innovation. Capitalism in and of itself isn't some evil invention. Subversion and degeneration of culture are the culprits. Communism has the same issue but there is no hedge against it because the people don't really have any power.
Bet on greed.
You underestimate what a communist can do with a comically large utensil.
Millions of people starving to death lmao!!1!
I love how you just keep regurgitating nonsense that has no basis in reality. Here's a dose of reality for you. Go educate yourself instead of clowning around here.
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made incredible achievements possible
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s after transition to capitalism, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.
You want to starve poor people, so you are a murderer.
Where did I say that?
Your post came across to me as "poor people in usa have more than enough to eat, so they can't starve"
They do have enough to eat. That's the whole point of the article. People don't starve to death in the United States. You can go to food banks, churches, meal halls etc not to mention welfare and free school lunches. Food is limitless.
Obesity is one of the biggest problems for Americas poor so that should tell you something.
America has a lot of problems but access to food is not one of them.
https://diabetesjournals.org/diabetes/article/60/11/2667/33452/Poverty-and-Obesity-in-the-U-S
Then why do they work? The whole economy there runs on the threat of starving. With the horrible work conditions poor people face there, they would not work in those conditions if they were unable to starve.
Many of them don't work and live in public housing. The ones who do work do so to have a higher quality of life. Living off of government handouts is not glamorous. Public housing complexes and inner city slums are notoriously crime ridden. The overwhelming majority of non-suicide gun deaths occur in these areas due to drug addiction etc.
The rural poor have similar problems but there is far less violence.
@Manmoth @yogthos At least they're not capitalists though
Who is 'they'? The people leaving or the people working in the government? Does it even matter if all people can hope for is meeting their basic needs?
I'm no apologist for the west but you're dreaming if you think there is anything to envy in Cuba other than the climate. Stores have bares shelves, people search or queue up for hours for bare necessities, and centralization ensures rampant government corruption that fuels (highly capitalistic) black markets.
And the only thing the people can do? Wait in line for their alotted rations and 'vote' in an election where there is only one choice.