~~pharmacists solely being distributors of pre-ordained medication has no detrimental effects on humans. π« the US is great to its people, and has very good healthcare practices!!~~ (livestream is on the 27th and i am excite, but not involved at all)
https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2024/fahrplan/talk/ASBXWW/
stream link for those interested:
https://streaming.media.ccc.de/38c3
EDIT: my lack of capitalization and poor word choice has confused people. this event is about making legal, tested for efficacy medication only. pharmacists are good. doctors are good. the cost of medication and other hurdles that prevent people from having access to medication are not.
EDIT 2: i looked into the 4 Theives Vinegar Collective (breifly, just on wikipedia) and i did not realize that they made the EpiPencil, which is an open-source device that injects a mesured dose of epinephrine (a medication that can be bought from a trusted and legal distributor). that's awesome stuff, but it's less awesome that they now want to share chemistry knowlege that they don't necissarily have a full understanding of, and push automated synthesis for people who also don't have the foundational knowledge to ensure safety. not really great. i guess that's what happens when healthcare is entirely for-profit, and inaccessable to so many people.
I think you're posting in the wrong neighborhood, RFK Jr.
These guys arenβt about alternative medicine, theyβre about DIY manufacturing actual medicine to get around inflated prices.
The OP doesn't get that across at all. Just going by the OP I would expect that they would start trying to sell me bleach to drink.
That's a mighty fine line to walk π§
neither have any meaningful quality control, this would get people killed if it wasn't juicero for chemistry that it is
Sure, but if the alternative is not getting the medicine..
Well, there's actually a third point on your scale, which is "The opposite of medicine."
If you take something for pain management and it kills you, is that better than not having the pain meds at all? For some people that's a complicated question; chronic pain can absolutely make someone wish they were dead. So maybe someone is desperate enough to try this in spite of the risks. But they should at least know those risks, right?
they've made juicero of backyard chemistry. everything you can do with that bullshit jar strapped to arduino you can do with hotplate and standard glassware - and cheaper - and even more because their setup doesn't allow you to run reflux sanely among others. putting procedures as a set of instructions for said arduino is no substitute for actual expertise. iirc their procedure for naloxone can fail in such a way that another pharmaceutical of opposite activity can be made (oxymorphone). there's zero analysis or quality control that would catch this. they're trying to generate synthesis pathways with ai. laufer has no actual training in chemistry, his degree is in maths and i suspect heavy case of engineer syndrome
there's also little consideration, if any, about purification and waste management. do you feel lucky?
that sounds..... questionable, almost at best. i will still probably tune in, but i'm now prepared to be kind of horrified honestly. i'm not sure someone with a math degree and no chemistry experience is the best source for this kind of information, especially when the substances being produced are meant to be consumed.
even with a chemistry degree, itβs very common for professionals to overestimate others ability to comprehend their field, and for beginners to overestimate their ability
when it comes to synthesising drugs, thatβs a recipe for disaster
good thing these guys seem in love with automating the process... π
leaving most of the brain-thinkie parts up to an arduino totally solves the "this might kill someone" factor. no-knowledge synthesis is the future! (/s for anyone wanting to toss reagents in a jar, and hope robots are infallable)
really tho, mistakes that make fries taste bad, or twist an ankle don't have shit on barely messing up a step in a synthesis that is to be consumed. it is like their reckless abandon is also intended to be a part of their cause, which makes things more confusing, and raises even more ethical questions.
If that's what they stand for then the imagine is completely mistaken. DIY medicine manufacturing is perfectly legal unless you're selling it or it's a controlled substance.
Are you addressing the man or the worm?
pharmacists are trained extensively about every class of FDA approved medicine, but doctors (primarily PCPs) are given insanely huge caseloads of "Becky-Sue needs antibiotics" type cases. i think you misunderstood what the talk/stream is about tbh.
manufacturing meds that are known to help and tested as such isn't exactly new, groundbreaking stuff. i don't think these guys are going to be pushing for scam-of-the-week alternative medicine lol
What you posted in the OP definitely needs to be phrased better then. Because it looks like something an antivaxer or an MMS nutter would post. "Big government wants to make all our healthcare decisions for us and we needs to rebel" is basically the antivaxer mantra. It should at least somewhere mention that its about manufacturing your own pharmaceuticals.
Also manufacturing your own medications is not illegal at all as long as they aren't controlled substances. You can make and swallow basically anything you want and the government won't stop you.
Additionally antibiotics probably aren't the best example to use for something people can do on their own because misuse of antibiotics tends to result in things like antibiotic resistant infections which can then spread and cause harm to the community.
i can edit the OP. i think i over-estimated how many people would read the text from the link.
i don't hang around anti-vaccer type spaces or people, and i hope you can avoid them too, since getting sick isn't fun.
antibiotic misuse seems more likely to me when people "ration" them, because of the difficulty obtaining them. i do see where you're coming from though, since misuse (generally early discontinuation) can cause problems.
The image says the Guv'ment has made what they do illegal.
Manufacturing medicine for yourself is not illegal. Hell, giving it away is not illegal, unless your negligence causes harm or if you make a claim that your product is identical to a prescription drug.
Selling it is illegal. Manufacturing dangerous controlled substances is illegal.
i guess i'll let the FDA and DEA (the lovely agency that largely gets to decide what substances on the "controlled substances" list, then also enforce the laws around those substances) decide what's safe for myself personally, and everyone else π€·
to learn about the talk, feel free to click the first link, if you like. it isn't really going to be about laws or "Guv'ment," i don't think. first paragraph (in screenshot) is an attention grabber tho, and i guess it rubs some people the wrong way.
Out of curiosity, which controlled substance is it that you want to manufacture?
π€ i don't remember mentioning a desire to create, manifest through demonic portal, synthesize, or extract anything not allowed by law. it seems more than a little presumptious to assume i have the want/need to accompish that. the aforementioned live event is not about anything on the CSA, but you did mention "controlled substances," which admittedly triggers me. i suppose you're a fan of the "war on drugs." you do you, i guess.
since we are asking random questions...
what educational materials or ideas do you desire it to be illegal to diseminate? just curious
If you're not breaking the law then you're not "criminalized" and not a "bioterrorist". The post explicitly says they are that and your response to my former comment was that the FDA and DEA don't allow you to decide for yourself. What is it you think they aren't allowing you to do? Tell me.
i mentioned that they "decide what's safe," which you seem to agree with whole-heartedly...
i also didn't claim that i, personally, am a "bioterrorist," and the info about the talk doesn't claim any person themselves is "criminalized."
do you always jump into talking with people with this many assumptions and misconceptions? it is confusing tbh, and i am unsure if you're just trolling, or enjoy arguing for no reason.
Well, the post is literally called "bioterroism rule(s)", so it's not strange that they feel like you're implying that.
if i said "giant mechs controlled by cute cats rule," would that mean i am actually a feline inside a really badass mech suit?
π€ tough call, really. depends on ths meaning of "sickest," in this context, and (completely genuinely) whether or not this specific group bioterrorists are practicing reasonable safety/harm reduction practices.
i did not realize this, but they may have skipped the whole "chemistry knowledge/experience" and scaling up for efficiency parts of the process, to jump right into automation... kind of bonkers lol.
almost definitely going to catch it live or recorded, but i might be equally intrigued and horrified. i was hoping they chose to use the tone they did to get people excited/interested, but it might be just how they feel.
Ever if they're not scammers, there will be many like them that are. Many people will not know the difference (see ivermectin, homeopathy, the supplements industry, gerson therapy). I get that this is a desperate measure for people in desperate situations, but that's exactly the kind of mark a scammer wants. I hope they do some good, but I also expect tragedies and lots of them.