show transcript
chirasul posted:
my only advice is to BE CAREFUL posting about holiday traditions around europeans. you'll post something casual like "anyone else watch the old Grinch movie every year? what a classic" and a european will appear as if summoned and say some shit like "funny how USAmericans always CONVENIENTLY forget that Not Everyone On Earth is from The USA…….. no of COURSE we dont watch 'the grunch' or whatever the fuck that is…. our tradition is to attend a community showing of Glummdorf the Racial Stereotype"
themainspoon replies with screenshots of several tumblr tags and comments:
riseupriseupandcomealong:
my mom’s (american) class tried doing a language exchange thing w a sister school in spain and they decided to send each other boxes of gifts for christmas. the spanish class made remarks about oh christmas in the usa is so commercialized we have ~real traditions~ here and then my mom opened a box full of blackface dolls and blackface doll ornaments and blackface clothespins in front of her students
raygender:
Did once have a Dutch woman
vehemently defend the Festive Christmas Blackface by repeating "it's different in Europe” with increasing desperation until she was crying. Literally all anybody else present did was just like, calmly say they were uncomfortable with the practice and not change her mind when she wailed about it.
monkey-mulch:
you bring up rudolph the red nosed reindeer and they bring out Skimbo the filthy redskin and im barely even joking about that they actually had this thing called indian plays in both soviet countries and germany
themainspoon:
European children waiting patiently on Hatemas Eve for Racism Claus to slur down the chimney and segregate all of their presents by colour.
Roetveegpiet seems to only have come about because of the blackface issue with Zvarte Piet, which was originally portrayed as a moor said to be a literal slave to Sinterklaas. Sooty Piet only got more popular than Black Piet in 2021., going from polls.
I've always heard that they were black because of the ashes. and, the original original Sinterklaas rescued prostitudes
every source on the internet will tell you that the soot thing is from like the 90s at the earliest.
Dutch Wikipedia has the first references to blackness from soot pinned to an image from the 1870s:
"Zwarte Piet had in deze tijd nog niet zijn huidige naam; zo is hij op een centsprent uit 1870 afgebeeld als een schoorsteenveger met de naam Zwartjan." https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#%3A%7E%3Atext=Zwarte+Piet+had+in+deze+tijd+nog+niet+zijn+huidige+naam%3B+zo+is+hij+op+een+centsprent+uit+1870+afgebeeld+als+een+schoorsteenveger+met+de+naam+Zwartjan.
Translates to: "Black Pete did not have his current name yet, he was depicted on an image from the 1870s as a chimney sweeper named "Black Jan" (Jan is a stereotypically Dutch name, one of the most common Dutch first names. Pete, or Piet in Dutch, is also a very common Dutch name).
i should have switched languages, there is of course more nuance in the original article. i'm reading a translated version so i may be missing something but "black jan" seems to be a reference to Jan Schenkman, the author. and although it is indeed stated that he had no intention of it being a depiction of a black person, the zeitgeist seems to have willed it into that shape anyway. after that section, the next reference to soot is in the early 1900s (not the 1990s as i read from the english page though). it does look like the soot explanation was the less popular one until fairly recently though.
The name is a reference to Schenkman, but it did refer to the same character.
Piet's origins are all over the place, and form a perfect cocktail of "it looks bad, but the explanation is fairly innocent". There's elements from chimney sweepers, traditional Venetian Moorish outfits, German Krampus, the practical element of having black makeup making a close relative hard to recognize for children, etc... that all combined without much of a clear decision-making process. It all happened very gradually and naturally within Dutch society.
Hopefully we'll have this changed everywhere soon enough, though there are still some conservative areas that resist the change.