this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2022
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My point is that citing the UN's position is in a sense circular. The UN only holds that position because China holds that position, not because it actually reflects the reality on the ground for the past 70 years.
The UN holds this position because TAIWAN holds the position that it is part of China and the true rulers of all of mainland China, also parts of it that aren't even China like Mongolia and even more of India.
The position of Taiwan being part of China was established because Taiwan agreed with that position completely and utterly. The only disagreement between those governing it was over who governs all of China.
It has fuck all to do with "throwing its weight around". You are literally revising and changing history to suit your own made up beliefs. China had a civil war, the communists pushed the Chinese government to Taiwan and then left them there, this government claimed rule over all of China, the communist government claimed rule over all of China. Nobody claimed Taiwan wasn't part of China. It was never a dispute. Taiwan was and still is a district of China that has a rogue governing body that the communists decided not to bother dealing with, in part because they were distracted by the Korean war where the Americans murdered 20% of the population of Korea.
Taiwan is part of China. The modern push for independence is secessionism by this longstanding rogue governing body inherited from the civil war. These are historical fact.
Taiwan is far from a rogue governing body. It's a complete state that has governed Taiwan for 70 years. Yes, it is a vestige from a civil war that never really quite managed to reach its conclusion. But the fact of the matter is that China has no legitimate claim over Taiwan. It never won that part of the civil war. That territory has been held by the Taiwanese government and the Taiwanese people increasingly do not identify as Chinese.
Taiwan is looking at declaring independence, but China has made it clear that it will instantly invade if Taiwan does so. The US has also said that Taiwan will be on its own if it rocks the boat by changing the status quo. So here we sit with an ambiguous status, at least in terms of what countries are willing to call Taiwan's status.
Which makes it secessionism of a region everyone has agreed is China by the rogue governing body of that region. That body being disconnected is exactly what makes it "rogue". It is a governing body. It is disconnected. It is a rogue governing body of a region of China, one they should have dealt with a very long time ago but decided upon different priorities.
You can dislike this reality all you want but it doesn't make it any less factual. That is the situation.
No. This running survey shows differently. The majority identifies as Taiwanese only (67%) with most of the rest having some dual identity as Taiwanese and Chinese. A vanishingly small number identify as Chinese alone.
Taiwan and its government is not rogue. This is an independent people with an independent government. No matter how China tries to frame it, invading Taiwan means invading an independent people and country.
This is widely discredited. It's weighted sampling with undisclosed weighting and draws from only people with landline telephones. The methodology is here.
Furthermore, you get wildly different results from these surveys depending on how you ask the question. For example if you give people fixed choices you might get something like the above, but if you give people multiple choice by just listing a bunch of identities and letting people tick boxes with no inherent leading by presenting it as an independence question you get this, which is widely regarded as a less biased and more scientific approach:
Obviously this is quite a split country on the topic, but it's not as clear cut as you seem to think it is. And I think you should also keep in mind that an absolute majority are not for independence, they are for the status quo. 65% of people opposed Pelosi's visit as well.
Taiwan is not an independent state, and there is no legal basis for that assertion. China has every legitimate claim over Taiwan and claiming otherwise is complete and utter nonsense that's not based in reality. Even Taiwan has never considered itself as not being part of China. The historical contention was which was the legitimate government of all of China. I implore you to actually spend the time toe educate yourself on the subject if you're going to keep arguing about it.
The claim is that the CPC has legitimate authority over the Taiwanese land. When did the CPC ever take that land? When has it ever governed it? Never. The CPC can wave around recognition they've gotten out of governments all they like. It doesn't change that that is not how Taiwan is.
Taiwan is a region of China. CPC is the legal government of China. Are those two facts so difficult to get into your head?
I get that's what the CPC's claim is. I just think it's an incredibly faulty claim, given that they've never governed Taiwan. They've just said that they do.
Chinese people dont care what you think.
Good for them. Going to go imperialist by invading a neighboring country that is no threat to them? Because that's what this has become now. If they do this, all claims to be "anti-imperialist" become hollow and false.
Not a country.
War isn't imperialism. Imperialism is an economic system, not just something you call any and all military action by any large country. Imperialism is an elevated form of capitalism in which finance-capital has evolved to become such a power that it merges with the state and uses all state powers in the pursuit of the expansion of capital abroad. Imperialism isn't one specific action, it is an entire state of being of a country. Like capitalism, but at its highest stage.
Read the thread again. Not a neighboring country, but a region of China.
China is rapidly becoming the most powerful and richest country in the world. No country will care about cheap slander from the collapsing US.
Feel free to keep that view, but I'm sticking with how people live their lives instead of how the CPC's ideology wants things to be.
China shouldn't get too overconfident there. How's the housing market? And the aging population?
People living in Taiwan are by and large happy with the status quo. Why are you trying to project your ideas on them? They don't want independence, they want things to remain as they are. Why are you so insistent you know better than them?
Considering 90% of people own their homes and Chinese cities never show up in most expensive cities in the world, it seems to be going great.
As if that's not a problem anywhere. Didn't stop the US from becoming and being the richest and most powerful country for a long time.
In what way is it circular to cite international law, and how exactly does this not reflect the reality on the ground for the past 70 years?
It is circular in that international law is that way only because China has muscled its way into making it that way. It's not that way because there's a basis in reality.
If anything, the fact that Taiwan acts as if its indepedent is US muscling its way into China as opposed to other way around. This would be akin to China pouring billions into Hawaii, Puerto Rico, or Texas for the past 70s years and fostering separatism there. This is an unprecedented level of interference in the affairs of another country. That's the basis for reality here.
Oh, BTW with Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Texas. Hawaii and Texas have no credible succession movements. China is welcome to waste billions. Puerto Rico is in the process of figuring out for itself what its status will be. If it chooses independence, it sounds like the US will respect that.
You keep framing this as if it's just between people in mainland China and Taiwan with no external factors involved. This is a false narrative that ignores the elephant in the room. US spends huge amounts of money influencing politics in other countries. If China or Russia spend comparable sums then they too could easily create secessionist movements in US. You get that right?
I was with you until you showed you're just as biased as the other side in this thread.
US embargoed Cuba for not bending over. You think they will let go of Puerto Rico without dismantling their livelihoods and ruining their reputation one way or the other? That alone is going to sway public opinions out of fear. And US has been invading other countries without any basis for decades. You seem to forget all that.
Would you even see any credible secession movement if they control media the world over?
I don't think Taiwan is part of China but you took the US propaganda wholesale.
So you don't respect the views of the Taiwanese people? They are not allowed to think for themselves?
That's a good question, why does US not let Taiwanese people think for themselves and spends billions on shaping public opinion there?
What billions to shape public opinion? Or are you referring to military aid, which has nothing to do with public opinion.
Military aid, political aid, media campaigns, and so on. NED is literally an arm of US government engaged in regime change operations around the globe.
Ah yes the billions poured into Taiwan by NED. Now let's see, that's $461,785 in grants that include Taiwan somehow, then divide it by the population of Taiwan to get two pennies per person. I bet that's really going to move public opinion.
US has been propping up separatists and shaping opinion in Taiwan since the end of WW2. There certainly have been billions poured into this project over the past 70s years. The fact that you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge this simple fact makes any meaningful discussion on the topic impossible.
Why do you think US is spending all that effort on an island half way across the world from it. Do you seriously believe it's because US regime cares about wellbeing of the people there when it doesn't even give a shit about its own populace?
I still trust the people of Taiwan to think for themselves more than I trust the CPC and Xi to tell them what's best for them at gunpoint.
Living in US, one would think you'd be well aware of how easily people can be manipulated. Your MAGA movement accounts for roughly 30% of the population now, is that just people thinking for themselves in your opinion? Would you support MAGA movements trying to secede from your country or would you claim that your government should intervene in that scenario?
That's simply not a comparable scenario. MAGA folks are more numerous in certain areas, sure, but there isn't a MAGA government or region made entirely out of MAGA citizens. Comparing a political movement, even one the size of MAGA, with a sovereign government that has ruled over its now 23 million citizens for 70 years is a bad comparison.
MAGA movement certainly has these characteristics in a few states like Texas and Florida. In fact, Texas actually made noises about exiting the union after the last election. This sentiment is likely to keep growing in the coming years. Again, let's say a foreign government like China or Russia started pouring money into this movement, arming it, openly helping MAGA politicians get into office, and so on. You would consider this to be just American people thinking for themselves?
You're also making a false statement about the government in Taiwan. KMT has been the government in Taiwan for most of its history, and it was actually moving towards reunification in 2014. US ran a color revolution to prevent that. Were you not aware of this fact or were you intentionally misrepresenting the situation?
Large numbers of people in US already seems to think it is: Dems say reps take money from Russia, and reps say dems take money from China. One could wonder how such banana republic is still keeping the world hegemony.
Right, and I think this is a direct result of the whole American exceptionalism idea. Most people in US have been convinced that their system is perfect, and it's the best system possible. So, when the system starts failing it must be because of sabotage by external actors as opposed to inherent flaws in the system itself. Democrats blame the Russians and say that republicans are their puppets, while republicans blame the Chinese and say the same about democrats.
In the end, nobody is focusing on the actual problems US is facing and as the material conditions continue to deteriorate the animosity and recriminations escalate. This polarization and tribalism is now creating conditions ripe for a civil war or a violent civil unrest. January 6 riot was the first example of that, but it most certainly won't be the last.
Meanwhile, US hegemony is rapidly unravelling on the world stage where the cost of the empire is becoming too much of a burden now. Countries are increasingly finding ways to stand up to US system of oppression, and the economic war with Russia has greatly accelerated this process.
You are not Taiwanese, so you dont deserve any judgement on this matter.
I agree. I respect their opinion and their opinion alone.