If my understanding of longtermism is correct, it's more of a function of utilitarianism. If one wants to do the most good for the most people, then it makes some amount of sense to focus on the far future where presumably there will be more people. Their consent is irrelevant, which is kind of the opposite of what I'm saying, which is that consent is relevant.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It's the other side of the same coin. They both argue about the well-being/bad-being of hypothetical humans. It's bogus, either way.

[–] retrieval4558@mander.xyz 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

They are not related because you have to exist to experience well-being or "bad-being". What I'm talking about is consenting to exist.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Longtermists try to justify their actions by invoking potential, future generations. Those don't exist either.

[–] retrieval4558@mander.xyz 1 points 4 months ago

They're presuming that people will exist, which is not a wild assumption

But that's not a philosophy I particularly subscribe to so I don't feel compelled to explain or defend it further.

[–] F04118F@feddit.nl 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think you make a great point. Have you read about the problems with "person-affecting views"? It's admittedly a bit harder to grasp, but doesn't seem less problematic to me.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Nope

[–] F04118F@feddit.nl 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Highly recommend. It's easy to dismiss as weird bullshit initially but enlightening when you put in the effort to understand.

To be clear, I am no longer strongly convinced of or against person affecting views and take both seriously.

This is a good starting point:

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/c6ZYCpq2L46AxSJNy/my-favourite-arguments-against-person-affecting-views

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I would prefer not to

Slavoy Zizek

[–] F04118F@feddit.nl 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I'm not sure if I should feel sad for you, or envious. To be so certain of your own point of view and take pride in not taking other ideas seriously. It must give some sense of calm but at the same time, you miss out on so much. I won't ask or recommend you anything though, I read the thing. Enjoy your wall staring. Let's hope it will make the world a better place.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Dude, get off your high horse. If I read every little thing some rando on the internet threw at me, I would never leave the toilet!

I don't find these EA thought experiments interesting. That's no reason to try to shame me for it.

I made a decision, please respect that.

[–] F04118F@feddit.nl 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I'm sorry, it seems I misinterpreted your comment by a lot.

I read about Slavoy Zizek's philosophy and ideas and in that context, "I would prefer not to" is the ultimate rejection of capitalism and some sort of super-resistance, if I understood correctly.

I thought you meant to dismiss the whole group of ideas without reading them based on how convinced you are of Zizek's ideas, and were blaming me for "supporting the system". That's why I reacted so aggressively, I'm sorry, that was bullshit.

P.S. I do tend to get stuck in these rabbit holes of philosophy.