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Wizards of the Coast "now talking to lots of partners" about next Baldur's Gate
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this post was submitted on 16 Apr 2024
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Idk if anyone could do half the job Larian did.
I have a feeling this will just be a cash grab to milk the IP for as much as they can.
Imagine if bg4 is a mobile game with micro transactions? Hasbro would totally do it
Don't you guys have phones‽
Is that the corpse of blizzard being piloted by Activision I hear??
They did similar thing with mtg.
Mtg has been microtransactions since Alpha. Still love it though.
True :) I sold off some of my collection and got my money back. Still can't do that with arena.
The Gates of Baldarian 4: Candy Maze Puzzles
Obsidian could maybe, they did a couple classic BG-style Infinity Engine games in Pillars of Eternity I & II.
...but that's a little bit like a step back/down from what we saw in BG3.
One huge advantage Larian had was years of experience making games in this genre, and I doubt many other studios have that sort of corporate knowledge. Obsidian may be the only sizable one that comes close. Maybe Beamdog too, as they are responsible for the Enhanced Editions of all the old Infinity Engine games, including some original content.
Please don't let Beamdog near it. I like the UI and QoL improvements in the EEs and all, but by god they should not be writing for a mainline BG entry.
What’s up with Obsidian these days? Outer Worlds was a really fun empty box. I enjoyed it like a Fallout game, but after ~30 hours I was done. The hype for that game was setting it up to be “the better Fallout”, but alas, the whole thing just felt rushed and empty to me.
I love their old games and I’m tentatively excited about OW2, but I’d be lying if I said I haven’t lost some faith.
Like Back 4 Blood, they weren't selling a game, they were selling a dev's name
I have full faith in Tactical Adventures. Solasta is the closest translation of tabletop D&D to CRPG ever made IMO. All they need is a better than indie budget and permissions to use the full license and content instead of just the SRD.
The gameplay is good but from what I played, outside of combat, it was a bit lackluster, and rations were a pain when I played. Though it's hard not to compare it to BG3 in that regard. I did like Larian's system to interact with the environment and liquids too that made some battles more dynamic. Maybe there's more of that is Solasta than I saw too, I didn't get far, should give it another go, it has solid combat which is at least half of a good DnD game.
You need to install the unfinished business mod to really make Solasta shine. It’s… unofficially endorsed by the devs (in the sense that the UB mod discord channel is hosted on the official Solasta discord). It adds races, subclasses, and more to bring the game fully in-line with tabletop options, including multi-classing.
Besides that, while the official campaign is decent enough, some custom campaigns are incredible, like full games in and of themselves, and some take more advantage of the game engine and dialogue options than the official campaign.
To me, Baldur’s Gate 3 is an interesting experiment, but in terms of gameplay it’s just not D&D. It’s a weird relationship sim with some (very) loose D&D mechanics. It has fun moments but the game is inconsistent, buggy, and generally becomes very un-fun, especially in multiplayer.
BG3 is very much a Larian game with D&D trappings, not a D&D game just made by Larian, if that makes sense.
I put something like 50-60 hours into BG3 and just couldn’t be bothered to finish it, stalled out once in act 2, and again on a second attempt in act 1. By contrast, I’ve got over 500 hours and counting in Solasta.
———-
Edit - oh, and with regard to rations, stack up early as you can (at least 20) and from there you’ll gather plenty in the field map if you have someone with high survival. Alternate option would be to have a Ranger or dries with goodberry, and later on other classes get the create food spell.
Or you could just disable the food mechanic altogether, it’s your game.
BG3 being less dnd and more larion is a major win. It's the only reason it is when vaguely playable, imo. 5e is an absolute train wreck of a system.
This is hyperbole for sure. What could possibly be that bad about 5e?
Hahaha oh your poor soul you don't know what you risk conjuring up with a question like that.
I have to write this all out in a blog post so I can just link it one day.
The core mechanic of 1d20+stuff produces flat probability. Every outcome on the die is equally likely. That's ridiculous. Go throw some darts at a dart board. Do you get an equal distribution around the board? Just as many hit the floor as the bullseye? No. So the underlying math is kind of trash.
The entire game is predicated on its rest cadence. You're expected to have like 5-8 medium encounters and then take a long rest. This generates a ton of problems for pacing and balance. Chief among them, most people don't want to play that way. Polls show people typically do like one fight per rest. Welp. Now all your long rest classes are over performing and your short rest classes suck.
Don't even start with "not every encounter has to be a fight". Don't even fucking start. Most people can't consistently come up with interesting non combat encounters in DND that tax resources the same way fights do. There are no real social conflict rules, for example, as mentioned below.
But even if you do somehow manage to do the suggested amount of encounters per rest, that severely limits the pacing of the story. There are so many hacks and variants to try to fix this. Gritty realism, sanctuary resting, heroic mode. They're all bandaids on a poor foundation.
The magic system is trash. It's just fucking bad. It had no real internal consistency. Every spell is bespoke. What's the difference between a third level spell and a fourth level? Fuck if I know. Can you make your own spells? Not really. Can you be creative with spells? Ehh kind of but they tend to be very specific about what they do, with few inputs.
Also like the way magic works is boring. There's no real flavor. You say you cast the spell and check off the box, and it happens. Maybe you need a material component. That's about it. It's shallow as heck. It's also weird that rangers paladins wizards clerics arcane-tricksters all basically have magic that works the same way. You could do so much more.
The social system I would say it was trash if it existed. You meet a pack of bandits in the pass. You want to fight them. The rules have a lot to say here. Hit points, armor, saves, actions and reactions, equipment, etc. Ok wait, you want to scare them off with your words instead. Well get fucked, the book has some vague guidelines that quickly turn into "the dm decides".
There are very few decisions to make about your character. Species and class. Maybe a feat or two depending on how long you play, but those compete with ASIs, and most games don't even get to 8th level. Subclasses sometimes have a few things to pick, but sometimes you literally get zero choices.
The skill system is extremely basic and you can't really specialize unless you're a class with expertise, and even then your options are kind of limited.
Magic items also have no real internal consistency. Why is the flying broom a like uncommon item despite being extremely powerful? Who knows.
Low level combat tends to also be very "I move and attack once". Some DMs might give you bonuses for taking advantage of the environment, but that's not well defined. It could be. It's not. Also making a single attack that has a like 40% chance of doing absolutely nothing sucks.
The main strengths of DND are brand recognition, and it's shallow enough that you can't really fuck up a character. Every human fighter is basically the same mechanically, which means your idiot 10 year old brother can play. But that also means you don't really have much depth to explore.
Pretty much every other part of the game is bad, under baked, or not suited for general purpose RPG stuff.
As someone who's only ever played 5e, I ask, what would you say is a better? PF? That's the one I hear a lot.
Pathfinder is the "we have both kinds of music: country and western" answer. I think pf 2nd edition is probably the best bet if you want to stay in the genre. I haven't played it but I've heard good things.
One thing I didn't touch on in my rant is genre. If you are trying to do something that isn't a dungeon crawl, probably don't use DND.
I personally really like Fate. It's more in line with how I imagine RPGs should go. Very narrative, lots of creative freedom. If you want a really crunchy system with lots of rules, it's not for you.
You know how sometimes people talking about DND will be like "ah yes my character will really come online when I hit 7th level as a monk paladin bard"? That's kind of nonsense. In fate if you wanted to be a righteous rockstar with a mean left hook, you could just write down "Rocker on a mission from God" as your high concept. If everyone agrees that's cool and they get it, you're done. Character works in session 1.
DND also tends to make the players be very zoomed in on their characters. Some people like that. I prefer fate where it's a little more zoomed out, and you're expected to think about the scene and story. As a player you have input.
That said, blades in the dark is also pretty popular. I don't like it for much less severe reasons than the problems I have with DND. It's not a bad game, I don't think, but there are some choices it made that I don't enjoy.
If you want a dnd like experience Pathfinder is your bet, it's got a lot more rules to it but if you read them you'll understand why. You can read them for free on aonprd.com by the way. Pathfinder gives you far more creative freedom than 5e while still being relatively tight.
My person recommendation for newbies to the hobby is Chronicles of Darkness. It's way cheaper than 5e too, if you stick to a single splat, think something like a race expanded out into a full game; vampires, werewolves, mages, changelings, humans who hunt monsters, mutants, things like that. The games are narrative focused but don't neglect combat (like 5e neglects narrative).
it's got a more free form point buy system, instead of leveling up and all your dice rolls just get better you get to put experience into whatever skill/ability you want to be better at or perk you want to have.
it's mechanics are genuinely simple, almost everything in the game is handled with the same kind of roll; you and your dm picks a skill (let's say crafting) and an ability (like 5e's ability scores, let's say intelligence) for whatever you want to do then you roll however many d10s as points you have in those scores.
it's setting is easier to understand, it's just modern day earth with a magical underground, that makes it way easier to know how much any given thing would cost or where you gotta go to do something. There are lots of weird things going on, but a new player doesn't need all of those and has plenty of information to be grounded otherwise.
it gives you lots of things to work with (like bloodlines for vampires or groups to join as anything else) but also explicitly encourages you and your dm to create new things with the base stuff as guidelines.
A few other recommendations; world of darkness is my preferred game, so i gotta mention it. Gurps is the most open game I've ever played, you can do literally anything.
Go play Blades In The Dark or Monster Of The Week
1d20 + a modifier is how you eliminate flat probability, because you're adding the modifier. DCs are set so that you nearly always succeed at a task that you're good at.
What's the difference between a third level spell and a fourth level spell? How many times you can feasibly use it. Or if you upcast, one die. This is probably the thing I like most about 5e compared to other systems.
Giving you a move every turn keeps combat more interesting than incentivizing you to stay still by treating it as any other action, IMO.
You're not really selling me.
The modifier doesn't make the probability less flat. You have an equal chance of getting every value on the die, so the worst and best outcome are equally likely. Compare to like 3d6. There's only one way to roll a 3 [1,1,1], but a bunch of ways to roll an 8 ([4,3,1], [3,3,2], [6,1,1], etc)
Go look at https://anydice.com/ . The default should be 3d6 and you see a nice curve. Change it to 1d20 and it's flat. 5% for everything. Change it to 1d20+5 and it's still flat, just with bigger numbers.
Your odds of success change in that when you're looking to roll a 15 you're more likely to fail than when you're looking for a 12, but at all times, for any check, you're just as likely to get an extreme result as an average. That's weird.
When you are creating a spell, how do you know what level it should be? How do you know what effects it should have? There's some guidance in the DMG but it's flimsy and not actually used by many of the canon spells. If you don't care about being creative with magic then you might not care about this. To me it makes it feel very rigid and mechanical.
There are so many other ways you could do magic.
What? My complaint wasn't that you can move and attack. It's that that's typically all you do. You move 30' and make a single attack. Go read "create an advantage" in the fate-srd for a glimpse of how things could be different. Some DMs will let you interact with the environment, but that's highly DM dependent and uncodified.
At higher levels at least you tend to get more stuff you can do on your turn.
I think pf2e also changed it so you get 3 actions.
Yes, but only in a critical success and critical fail. If you're supposed to always succeed because your character should be able to do the action successfully in their sleep, the DM isn't even supposed to make you roll. The die may land on any value between 1 and 20, but if the DC is 10 and you have +7 to your roll, you've eliminated failures from 3-9 on the d20. I'm well aware of how the average chance of rolling a given number changes when rolling multiple dice, but I'm not sure why a 3d6 bell curve would be preferable to 1d20 when you're only looking for a binary success or failure.
You could raise this about any card in Magic: The Gathering as well, and I think the answer is just "balance". I don't know that I've found myself in a position where we needed a spell to be created. For me at least, some amount of rigidity is very much appreciated on my end when the fiction involves literal magic, because it breaks the rigid laws of nature by definition.
Someone described the PF2e 3 action mechanics to me, and there are parts of it that I like, but at the end of the day, it incentivizes different behaviors and isn't necessarily better or worse. What would you like to do on your turn other than move and attack (which also ignores class-specific options you get for your bonus action, as well as other types of regular actions you might take for one reason or another)? What choices do you make differently when movement is treated equally to attacking as opposed to movement being use-it-or-lose-it? It affects how it feels, and it's great that there are other systems to mix things up, but I like how 5e handles it.
The economy is non-existent, actual balancing is literally impossible, you can't make a character yours (reflavoring your eldritch blast doesn't count), so many rules just don't exist or are on some random designers Twitter account instead of the damn books. If you want to argue it's a simple system; it isn't, it's stupidly convoluted for how little it actually offers.
Edit: look at Pathfinder (chosen because it's the closest comparison); it actually gives DMs a rough guide to how much money a player should be expected to have at any level, a decent idea of what players should fight in an encounter (2e even tightened that math up even more), a myriad of ways to customize your character on a real mechanical level, and all the rules are easily found on the same online resource. 5e doesn't do any of that.
I don't know that the economy is an important part of D&D or that I see it as a fault that it isn't. It has a list of approximately what kind of adversary should be a challenge for you at a given level, but that seems like a totally different discussion than how much money that character should have. A soldier would do better in a fight than Jeff Bezos, but Jeff's got more money.
it's an aggressively mediocre system that's had years of a huge community polishing it to a mirror shine.
You can praise it for the community content, or go off-book like you can with any other system, but that's applicable to any system with the same community size.
Whatever you look for in it it's lacking in comparison to another system. Tactical combat? PF2e. Rules light? Worlds without number.
It's a decent middle ground of a system only because of community hard work. But that's only for the GM side. Players still need to deal with the poor character creation, unless they get a lot of support from their GM.
I quite like the character creation compared to other systems I've played.
It's D&D For Windowlickers, and that's the highest praise it deserves.
To each their own on BG3, I used to play number of tabletop RPG games (many years ago now but a variety) and to me BG3 gives you enough options to feel like you can play as your character rather than just walk between combats, as well as avariety of ways to solve issues. Watching YouTube plays amazes me on the says other people solve the issue. I also used to play the old DnD PC games and it feels much better from my perspective, so that's probably sways me.
I can see your view but to me BG3 is more intended as a single player game, especially with the companion interactions, so I can see why multiplayer would be lacking. Thankfully I haven't had many bugs but have heard of them. For reference I have about 120 hours after trying beta a few goes and only a bit in act 2 so it's a favorite of mine and am biased.
Thank you for the recommendation on the mod, I will definitely give that a try and see how the game plays. I keep meaning to reinstall anyways and new mods always give more incentive.
I think Owlcat makes fantastic dnd games. They made Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, and Rogue Trader. They could certainly do more than half as good as Larian. However, their big problem with pathfinder games is that they are stupid long and kinda bog down with so so so many items and talents in the late game.
Almost anyone who works with pathfinder/paizo could have instead worked with D&D/Wizards. Owlcat etc made their choice specifically to not work with Wizards.
Yeah. I'd abandon the series until someone can do a high quality one that's different though it's not a clear comparison.
I think a lot of people could IF they didn't have publishers ruining it to please shareholders.