Am I upset that women and children are being murdered? Yes. I guess you’re ssying I’m supposed to be fine with that. Sorry, I can’t be blind to atrocities just because they aren’t happening in my backyard. Seems like you are. You know that you can be against Trump AND murder, right?

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Sure it's fine to be upset, but being upset 100% of the time means you're vulnerable to emotional manipulation and become disconnected from reality. Trump supporters also have good reason to be upset about current economic conditions, don't they? But they're upset at the wrong people because they're blasted with emotion non-stop and don't ever think about how things are.

The political leadership of Hamas are billionaires living in luxury in Qatar while their people die. The local leadership in Gaza living in underground bunkers that keep them safe while the people above them die. They use religion to justify their actions. Like all authoritarian regimes they are very good at propaganda to keep their population in line and to gain support from foreigners.

This fascist organization launched an attack on October 7, 2023 where they went into villages and murdered women and children. How upset does that make you? Apparently not that much, which is concerning. The goal of this attack was to start the war you're seeing play out now. During that attack they took hostages to force Israel into a ground campaign. Ground campaigns in a densely populated area is known by everyone to result in the highest amount of civilian casualties. Hamas knew this, it's what they wanted. Because they can use this to create effective propaganda.

The emotions you're feeling is proof of the effectiveness of Hamas's plan. They made this happen to make you sympathetic to them. And because of how effective this has been they will likely do it it again.

In a few decades time when this all happens again, you'll be saying the same things to the younger generation as I'm saying to you now. This cycle won't end until we have a generation that can see they're being manipulated. Unfortunately you're not the generation that will end the cycle of violence. Maybe Generation Z+1 will be the ones that won't fall for the propaganda. If we survive that long.

[–] Zummy@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Are you seriously trying to say that if people are upset that innocent Palestinians are being murdered, they are being manipulated by Hamas? Dude, I come from a Jewish family. I’m pretty sure Jews know a thing or two about systematic extermination. You’d be the person telling Jews that being upset about concentration camps means they’re playing into political hands. What happened to the Jews at the hands of Hamas is terrible, and I wish it hadn’t happened, but just because innocent Israelis were killed doesn’t mean innocent Palestinians should be killed in retaliation. Even if the goal is get Hamas, you don’t do that by attacking areas where innocents are and where innocents will get killed. And you don’t deprive Palestinians of food and water. I just heard yesterday that Palestinians have been reduced to eating grass because the food they have been eating (that is normally given to animals) has run out.

Now, there is absolutely no doubt Trump is a terrible person, and I will be voting for Biden, but I can certainly see why people who have seen their ancestors and families die at hands of Israel, would not automatically want to support the man who is continuing to give the money and weapons being used to do that killing. I hope you never have to go through what the Jews and Palestinians have been through, but I also hope you have some perspective in the future.

I want to be clear that this is a discussion and I am not trying to call you bad person (or anything close to that or of the sort). I just want you and others to understand why people would be hesitant of a Biden vote and why they aren’t supporting Trump just because they are.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Dude are you saying Trump voters don't act against their own self interest because of propaganda? So why would you think your ethnicity makes you less susceptible to propaganda.

Your social media is probably full of "news" items telling you to not vote for Biden because he's an evil demon the same as the MAGA social media feeds. Probably sewing the same distrust of "mainstream media" as their feeds are doing.

I've had discussions with the "genocide joe" types and discussions with the MAGAs. They are the exact same kinds of discussions. Same outrage same distrust of anything that doesn't fit the narrative. Same ignorance, same disregard for self interest thinking it's noble act to make things worse.

Honestly, the Palestinian movement is a violent blood and soil antisemitic movement. They're good at propaganda because it's what fascists do. Even Jews fell for this kind of thing the last time it happened. They only hate the ~~Cosmopolitan~~ Zionist Jews, you'll be ok as long as you go along with them, right?

When my Grandfather's generation was done with the country that was spouting this kind of shit last time the cities of that country looked a lot like Gaza does now. They put fascists in power, we all hoped that movement would fizzle out but it didn't. The world would be better off if Hamas didn't exist but it got too much outside support to die off on it's own. Maybe this conflict will at least weaken them enough so their River to the Sea movement will die out. Or maybe it will continue because of outside support. Which case this all happens again in another generation.

So tell me do you want this to happen again? Support Hamas and it will. So if you support Hamas, and that results in this happening again, who's the one that's really promoting genocide? It ain't "genocide joe" who's doing everything he can to end it.

Ah but you're too upset to even consider how support for a Palestinian movement that has refused to separate itself from Hamas makes you complicit in genocide. That's an accusation you like to throw at others, and you're too emotional to consider your own actions. And always the point of fascist propaganda. Too emotional to think about the repercussions of your actions.

[–] Zummy@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Ok, well, if you think the Palestinians and Jews are to blame for all this, we have nothing else to discuss. I no longer think you want to have legitimate discussion. Personal advice, be less bigoted the next time you want to discuss this.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 1 points 8 months ago

What's bigoted? Thinking that Palestinians are people and are therefore responsible for their actions?

And I did mention that Palestinian fascism has a lot of support from the outside. Oil rich assholes, Iran, naive westerners. Lots of outside support which keeps Palestinian leaders corrupt and authoritarian. Which is the major obstacle for Palestinian statehood. Not that most people care about that, it's only maintaining a righteous anger that matters, right? Hamas might've faded from existence if it weren't for this.

See the emotional narratives have gotten you so wound up you don't have any rational arguments anymore. So just default to calling anyone you disagree a bigot and refuse to think about anything that conflicts with your emotions.