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Germany: Berlin schools asked to distribute leaflet describing the 1948 Nakba as a 'myth'
(www.middleeasteye.net)
this post was submitted on 24 Feb 2024
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I'm as appalled as anyone here, but as someone who speaks German, follows German media and worked in Germany for several years, please stop with the misinformed "Germany supporting genocide again, I guess they never change hurr durr" bullshit.
Germans know their history and every kid is taught a deep shame of what past Germans had done. They feel they owe an infinitely large debt to all Jews for the horrors of the holocaust. They all still feel responsible.
There are laws against antisemitism. Again, this is reasonable for a country with this history. They don't want any of this to come back, or to make a joke or justification of what happened. Joke about Nazis in public and you'll find yourself in trouble immediately.
About the current events in Gaza. German media and politicians interpret criticism of Israel as coming from antisemitism, even if the criticism itself may be justified. They may not hear your arguments at all, if they think you're just saying these things because of some secret antisemitic agenda. It's not that there isn't any criticism, but there is very little and it's always surrounded with a lot of "I'm not antisemitic" qualifiers. You can say something about the Israeli government, but not about the existence of Israel itself. You can call the killing in Gaza terrible tragedy, but never a genocide. Public protest doesn't do that kind of nuance, so it's regarded as highly suspect. The chant "from the river to the sea" is tainted, so you can't say it at all, regardless of intent, interpretation of its meaning, they will flat out stop you. In this sense, dialog is certainly difficult. Once you cross the line, they will dismiss anything after that as the ramblings of just another antisemite. It's not possible to have the difficult conversations at all.
I'm not saying I agree with any of this, but this is how German society at large sees it. For me personally, zionism and Israel are harmful remnants of colonialist thinking that have no place in this century. Germany needs to grow up when it comes to their stance on Israel. Israel can't keep oppressing Arabs the way they have. Peace can only come from trying to restore justice and that means equal rights for non-Jews, return of land, right to return of refugees, economic aid, etcetera.
Germany should look at South Africa, Northern Ireland and to their own German Unification as examples from history to follow, and admit their holocaust trauma is distorting their view of the current situation.
I mean you have a point and I agree with most of what you’re saying, but we’re sending weapons and providing rhetorical cover for the Israeli government. E.g. by the police violently interrupting protests, or worse insisting that the claims of genocide are baseless and going as far as announcing to intervene on Israel’s behalf in the ICJ.
Palestinians are being killed by German-delivered ammunition all while Germany is defending Israel in the ICJ. This is clearly supporting the ongoing genocide
I know, it's fucked up. I just want to comment on these braindead "Nazis gonna Nazi, amirite?" comedians littering every thread about Germany and Israel right now
The reality is that people are really disappointed in Germany for once again supporting Genocide.
Especially with Gaza being a literal concentration camp right now the similarities become rather hard to ignore.
It's a low blow but factually the Nazis are Nazi'ing again pretty hard.
The low blow is counterproductive, don't you see?
I'm afraid that Germany doesn't get a free pass when, once again, it supports extreme violence along racial lines with an intensity that has surpassed every other such cases in the modern era but the of the Nazis, accompanied by extreme racist proclamations and even Nazi-style propaganda.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's gonna be called a duck.
It is not counter productive. It is an apt comparison that quickly gets people to understand the gravity of the situation. A huge Genocide is going on I do not care about people's feelings getting hurt from the truth.
I'll leave you with a final quote.
Okay, Nazi-
That's what you wanted right? Now cry foul and send more weapons to isreal.
Hey you're getting downvoted pretty hard in this thread but just want to say I think you're right. Having a nuanced opinion is tough on social media. (I already see one commenter calling you a Nazi as a result)
The whole idea that this is happening because Germans just love genocide so much is just beyond ridiculous.
Thanks. I think it's nice that you come out and say this. I want to say it doesn't bother me but it does. I am playing on the same damn team as they are. They're throwing all these talking points at me and I'm like "I know! I agree with all of that!", so surreal
As a german citizen, I do not fully agree with you. Of course, some people behave the way you described because of the reasons you provided, although I find their reasons mostly stupid since they are so inconsistent: why are other genocides more acceptable than others? Why did Germany only recognize the namibian genocide in 2021? Why doesn't Germany extend the same amount of care, empathy, and concern to LGBTQ people, sinti/roma, and other victims of the holocaust?
On the other hand, there is a growing number of relatively prominent German politicians that have made nazi remarks in semi-public spaces or behind closed doors, or have been uncovered to have a deeply troubling neonazi past, yet they still get invited everywhere and do not see the level of state repression (through the cutting of funds for example) or police violence that pro palestine activists see. Somehow the first point doesn't seem to fully extend and clamp down on these people.
True but these American jokesters aren't referring to that, I can assure you.
We should do something about right wing extremism being on the rise all over Europe, especially the politicians and rich fucks getting away with it
The entire thing seems to have been taught in Germany as a lesson about one specific race shouldn't have done what they did to another, specific, race, rather than as the Humanitarian Principle that people, any people, independently of race or creed shouldn't be oppressed and killed for their etnicity-
So the framework of cold. calous, violent Racism was preserved but in the German mind a specific race - Jewish People - was moved from the list of "inferior races" to the list of "superior races like us".
(It's funny how your description of it, heavilly ladden with racial terms, is a wonderful display of just how the "regret" about that country's own extreme racist violence fully preserves the entire racist mindset of classifying people as members of races and credos and then judging them and treating them differently because of such races and credos, hency why your description of such learnings is all about a specific race, with no reference whatsoever to individuals or humanitarian principles)
Had the lesson been learned along Humanitarian lines, Germany would not unwaveringly support the "Jewish Nation" as they call it as it over the years became ever more Fascist and violent, cultimating in what very overtly is Genocide with openly racist tones (the "human animals" statement by members of the Israeli Governments says it all) because the etnicity of the majority in a nation is entirelly irrelevant for non-racists when judging that nation on its actions, as is the etnicity of its victims: the actions speak for themselves and for a humanitarian, rather than a racist, the race of those involved neither improves nor worsens the judgment of those actions.
That all this has and is being pushed into the minds of the common German using "old-style" propaganda which is even aimed, as we see here, to children, is a pretty worrisome indication that this is more than "mere" racism in Germany and that Fascism never really left the mindset of that country's power elites and that its ways are still seen as the right way of doing things, both towards the German Population by deploying the kind of Propaganda techniques that Goebbels was so fond of and towards the "enemies of our friends" by continuing to provide "unwavering" support to a Fascist nation currently engaged in the most violent murderous genocide along racial lines since the Nazis.
Ignorance is bliss, but this is just so wrong. I'm not sure if 10 fingers are enough to count every event making this false.
Germany is supporting Genocide dude.
You should learn a thing or two about your History. You clearly didn't pay attention in school.
Never again means never again for anyone.
I've concluded that Germans were taught "never again" as a very specific "Germans" vs "Jews" thing rather than the Humanist "never again shall people be murder en masse because of their etnicity" that does not include any specifics about the etnicity or credo of the perpetrators or the victims.
Certainly, that would be very consistent with not just the current behaviour of German politicians when it comes to Israel's Genocide but also how the past events which Germans regret are invariably framed and talked about in race terms, i.e. "Germans" and "Jews", even to the point of excluding other etnicities that the Germans also targetted and murdered in large numbers during WWII such as the Roma.
If one doesn't destroy the racist framework of thinking of people as members of a race first, one is still a racist (even if some races one before though of as "lesser", one now thinks of as "like us"), because one is still running around judging and acting based on prejudices about entire races and credos when dealing with human beings - not treating them as persons but rather treating them as members of groups they were born into.
This right here is what I'm talking about. We all know the history, thank you very much. Germany's stance comes from extreme loyalty to Jews to make up for past crimes, not from a desire to genocide Gazans. I can't say it any more plainly. These jokes and remarks about "Germans always be genociding" are insulting and incorrect.
And you don't have to explain to me how Israel is absolutely in the wrong in this conflict, my friend. Israel is committing (and has been committing) genocide and I condemn that to the fullest. Not only should there be a ceasefire, there should be an end to the occupation
Germany was a big fan of expulsing all the Jews to another country. This has nothing to do with wanting to protect them.
In fact the opposite is true. Getting all the Jews to voluntarily migrate completely falls in line with Nazi ideology.
Germany has a massive Nazi party in the AfD right now. So the actual protection of Jews does not seem like a German priority.
AfD are not all Germans. You know this. There have been widespread protests. I'm assuming you're Dutch and I hope you would be equally offended if people said you are complicit in Geert Wilders horrible utterings. There aren't any widespread protests of PVV as for the AfD.
I don't see the point in arguing here, to be honest. I am not defending anything bad here. I'm just sick of the kneejerk reaction equating present day Germans to actual 1940s Nazis for shits and giggles.
We need Germans who support Israel unconditionally to consider that Jews aren't the victims this time, and that protecting Jewry from antisemitism does not mean they can't do anything wrong, ever. It doesn't help if people show a blatant disregard for the history and sensibilities of German society
Any comparisons of this Genocide in Gaza to the Dutch being very helpful to Nazi Germany in 1940 are fully justified too. The Dutch were massive Nazi's and once again the Dutch are massive Nazi's.
If anything I encourage people to use these stereotypes to showcase how we are making the same mistakes as in the past once again.
Dutch PM Mark Rutte said "How can we make it look like israel isn't committing war crimes" because he wants to be promoted the NATO top general and is a giant bootlicker. This is not just Geert Wilders.
If the Netherlands starts giving F35 parts to israel again please start calling them Nazi's I have zero objections to that.
Fair enough but the generalizations aren't helping. We need them to see how Israel is on the wrong side, because simply calling them Nazis is just adding to the confusion. How can they be Nazis by supporting Jews, they'll say. It doesn't make sense.
The big parallel that makes israel so comparable to Nazism is that israel has ethnically cleansed all these Palestinians into a giant concentration camp and is systematically murdering them through starvation, mass executions and bombing.
Especially the starvation is just completely inexcusable. Children are currently dying en masse of starvation in Gaza.
Nazism was not just about Jews. It was about Black people, gay people and Gypsies too. Everyone not part of the "majority" group needed to die.
In fact most of the victims of WW2 on the European side were Russians. 20 Million. And we don't talk about the Germans.
Nazism is currently the most well known example of racial superiority because of bloodline.
I don't know why you keep telling me this. You keep drawing me into some conversation about how awful it is what's happening, and I agree. Israel is committing genocide. I never said otherwise. This isn't about that. I know what is happening. I'm just trying to give the German perspective because it's nothing like Germans are always supporting genocide or their culture is still full of Nazi shit. It isn't. Not saying their stance on Israel isn't wrong, the government still sides with Israel, but please try to be a little informed.