An oldie, but a goodie
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
1417 points (92.1% liked)
linuxmemes
21207 readers
16 users here now
Hint: :q!
Sister communities:
- LemmyMemes: Memes
- LemmyShitpost: Anything and everything goes.
- RISA: Star Trek memes and shitposts
Community rules (click to expand)
1. Follow the site-wide rules
- Instance-wide TOS: https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
- Lemmy code of conduct: https://join-lemmy.org/docs/code_of_conduct.html
2. Be civil
- Understand the difference between a joke and an insult.
- Do not harrass or attack members of the community for any reason.
- Leave remarks of "peasantry" to the PCMR community. If you dislike an OS/service/application, attack the thing you dislike, not the individuals who use it. Some people may not have a choice.
- Bigotry will not be tolerated.
- These rules are somewhat loosened when the subject is a public figure. Still, do not attack their person or incite harrassment.
3. Post Linux-related content
- Including Unix and BSD.
- Non-Linux content is acceptable as long as it makes a reference to Linux. For example, the poorly made mockery of
sudoin Windows. - No porn. Even if you watch it on a Linux machine.
4. No recent reposts
- Everybody uses Arch btw, can't quit Vim, and wants to interject for a moment. You can stop now.
Please report posts and comments that break these rules!
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Yeah, those mailing lists used to have some quite funny stuff; my favorite so far is smth along the lines of "whoever thought this was a good idea should be retroactively aborted".
But, on the other hand, damn it's toxic. Should've really sucked to work on the kernel back then.
I was curious as I couldn't help but laugh, but damn dude. That is rough. Hilarious looking at it now, but I feel bad for whomever was at the receiving end.
That's some quality venom.
Gold
Someone else pointed out that he actually apologized for being toxic sometimes and took some time off as a kernel maintainer because of that. Nice to see.
This happened on kernel 3.8, he stepped down on 4.18. That's plenty of time time for as lot more fuckups.
It's not really a fuckup it's like a fucksideways.
The kernel was safe, only feelings were hurt
I meant Linus' behavior was a fuckup. And he probably fucked up a lot between this example and his stepping down.
Was the product impacted? Did Mauro get his commit together?
If the product was undamaged he was just rude. A fuckup means he hurt the mission, he hurt his goals
He did hurt the mission. Plenty of kernel maintainers have left, and those were people who had been with the project for years. Losing experienced people to toxicity 1000% harms both the project and the product.
In almost instances of Linus going off on one in public it is because maintainers weren't doing their jobs (to act as quality gatekeepers), or particular developers thinking they could steam roll road changes through if they kept submitting them, or not listening to what Linus was saying. I remember Linus used to ream out Hans Reiser a lot (the guy who was subsequently imprisoned for murdering his wife) because he constantly tried to get ReiserFS into the kernel despite serious issues Linus had with it.
So generally when you see a rant, there is a history behind it and the rant itself is directed with a point. I also think it's self evident that the kernel has benefited from this "benevolent dictator" model. I'm sure some people have gotten all precious over their feelings being hurt. The rest raised their game and the result has been a code quality standard you'll probably never see anywhere else.
I can understand Linus getting frustrated at people who consistently push him (i e. Lennart) and I agree that there's a reason he's stayed at the helm of kernel maintenance and development all this time; however, that doesn't denigrate that this is an unacceptable way to treat someone which Linus himself acknowledges! If this were about ReiserFS going into the kernel, I would understand that. But a poorly made commit should not be met with this vitriol. I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for poor work, but this is not it.
Did that demonstrably happen?
If there's a surplus of talent (sounds like Mauro was dead weight) then at most he was just rude on Mauro's way out the door.
I'm not saying it's cool to be rude, but if it's Linus' review then you get what you get. To be butthurt about someone being rude to you should motivate you to learn your code interactions better. (In this case error handling)
You're making judgements on people's utility and ability based on the volatile reactions of man who admits to having issues. That creates toxic environments where people are not encouraged to do better, but any amount of change is due to fear of repercussions. This does not promote growth or new ideas that would genuinely improve something, but rather a fear of failure if they attempt something new. This also isn't useful programming criticism because the actual useful criticism is buried in an emotional slurry that's going to make something less receptive to the useful information.
Fear in the weak, those that can't handle stern words.
Something line Kernel dev is not the space for fast and loose, and people need to be held accountable. Not coddled
And yeah, I'm making utility judgements based on Linus Torvalds. I'd say he has a pretty good eye for utility.
You're making a false equivalency where stern is the same as toxic. There are more professional and clear ways to communicate the issues with code quality. No one is disagreeing that those need to be communicated. The Issue is how.
And because you seem to take stock in what Torvalds says, then consider that if he himself admitted these were harmful and inefficient methods of communication then they probably were. If it was leading to fantastic results in the kernel i don't see why he would've stopped. My guess is that he learned something that it seems you may still have yet to: empathy.
You want some stern words?
You are a useless peace of dead weight in this community. Your comments suck and you have no idea how people work and how to professionally communicate. I hope you never have a job, let alone one in a management role. You should leave and never come back. Get aborted retroactively! You make the world a worse place by your mere existance!
How do you feel about that? Are you going to change your behavior because of these "stern words"? Or are you going to think "What an idiot" and ignore everything I said?
And we both are just anonymous randos on the internet and while this comment is public, not a lot of people are going to read it and it will have zero impact to either of our lives.
Now imagine I was your boss, both of us are publically known people and I post this on the company social media account together with your full name.
And people still dig this up 10 years later to laugh at it.
Please reconsider your interpersonal behaviour.
You are just going to die on this hill, aren't you? Even Linus recognized that his attitude was toxic, eventually, and that it was having a negative impact on the kernel development community. Yes, people left. Talented people decided it wasn't worth the abuse.
Who's dying? None of this matters.
Yes or no was mauro being a fuckup or not? Simple as.
Yes people left and were not heard at the time:
*https://sage.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
*https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html
No, was the product reduced or damaged, not did people leave. No one cares about individuals, if they can be replaced without blocking the progress of the project.
Those articles are very whiney. They chose to work on that project, with a singular leader. It's his house, his rules, his standards.
Bad bot
Meh
Adult children sad when mean words
You seem eager to pose this “if the product was undamaged” as if you can quantify what might have happened differently, but then in a comment below you ask someone else to prove that maintainers left.
It might shock you to learn that products are developed by people. Actual people stay or leave and work wildly differently based on things like respect, expectations, and being in a hostile environment.
Want proof of that? Go work on an actual project with a team sometime.
edit - And this isn’t even accounting for the ways toxic communication impedes wider adoption of a product
People who could be easily replaced. It's a non issue.
I do work on software teams, and don't conduct myself like Linus, because I'm not Linus. That pattern of communication isn't available to me, an average engineer.
But if someone spoke to me that way (and they have) I took it as a clear signal I need to level up and act right. Not an invitation to feel bad about myself.
Linux has clearly not missed out on wide adoption in any way.