this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2023
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Zach Shrewsbury faces an improbable task to replace the conservative Democrat in the face of a Republican onslaught – but he won’t be put off

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[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 53 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

The party can't find a candidate further to the right than Manchin, and Manchin isn't seeking re-election because he knows he can no longer win.

Moving to the right has failed. Even if Shrewsbury loses, and I'm so fucking delighted to say this, he's the best candidate you have. If he doesn't win, it's because centrist Democrats stayed home when they didn't get their first choice and didn't want to vote blue no matter who.

If he does win, centrists were lying about progressives not being able to win red states.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 36 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Centrists have always lied about progressives being able to win in red states. The key in WV (and most red states) is a heavy emphasis on worker power and advancing organized labor.

[–] blindbunny@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You forgot about gun rights. But nobody wants to talk about that... And I'll get down voted for mentioning it.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They would need to take a Midwestern stance on firearms most likely. Tbh a socialist would likely fit the role nicely. As the saying goes, "you get your guns back when you move far enough left"

[–] blindbunny@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

May I ask you to expand on that? What stance do Midwesterners take on gun rights?

Also, oddly I didn't get downvoted.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The Midwest has a weird stance on guns in general. Even the most staunch liberals in the Midwest oppose "assault-style weapon" bans. The emphasis has been on raising the bar to ownership without heavy restrictions after reaching that bar.

From my experience, there's also a very healthy gun safety culture. I have some friends that are dumber than a box of rocks, and even they never touch their guns after any kind of drinking or drug use. The restrictions on using guns as a minor mixed with the very popular activity of hunting means anyone that has any genuine interest in guns has at least 5 years of training before they can even purchase a gun.

[–] blindbunny@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I agree with all of this.

To be clear though a minor has 5 years of training before they can purchase a firearm am I understanding that correctly?

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's a bit of extrapolation, my bad. The Midwest (or at least my state) doesn't allow anyone under the age of 12 to go hunting with a firearm. At the age of 12, the kid must graduate a 6 week state-ran hunting/firearm safety course. After that, they must be within a certain distance of a legal guardian at all times if the gun is loaded. Because of the instilled safety culture, safety is also enforced by the guardian. They can purchase a gun at age 18.

[–] blindbunny@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

These are extremely fair rules. I was much younger when I started shooting and I wish I was raised in a more safety oriented gun culture. Thanks for sharing this. May I ask what state this is? I'm assuming Michigan.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

Close, but no cigar! I live in Minnesota. From what I hear, our gun laws are very similar to Michigan. Iowa and Wisconsin aren't as strict, but the safety culture seem to cross state lines from what I've seen

[–] qprimed@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Also, oddly I didn't get downvoted.

its a legit question. I also want to see the the parent poster says, but I tend to agree

socialist rifle association is a thing and I personally know strongly left of center peeps that are protective of their gun rights for all the obvious reasons you might care to think of. makes sense in many ways.

[–] blindbunny@lemmy.ml 3 points 11 months ago

I think I'm just used to the other site and getting down voted for any mention of gun rights support.

I'm aware of SRA and dig what I've seen them do near Tucson. Maybe I should join.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Centrists have always lied about progressives being able to win in red states.

I hope he has direct funding from individual small donations. If he relies on party funding, they'll yank the rug out from under him like they did with Vallejo and then gleefully announce that progressives can't win.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I hope he goes to the DSA for funding. They're the best socialist org equipped to fund a campaign, CPUSA simply doesn't have the money.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

I just hope he doesn't rely on the Democratic Party. I've seen how that ends.

[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If he doesn't win, it's because centrist Democrats stayed home when they didn't get their first choice and didn't want to vote blue no matter who.

No, it means Trump voters refused to vote for him when enough of them were ok with voting for a centrist Democrat.

69% of West Virginia voted for Trump. You cannot win without at least some of them. We shall see if a self described Socialist can get enough of them but it doesn't look good.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No, it means Trump voters refused to vote for him when enough of them were ok with voting for a centrist Democrat.

Already addressed that. Manchin's not seeking re-election because he knows that centrist Democrats' only strategy of moving to the right has failed.

[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

But you claimed that Shrewsbury losing would be because centrist Democrats didn't come out to vote for him and that's just not (necessarily) the case. Any Democrat needs all Democrats to win in West Virginia, but they also need much more than that. That is why a centrist Democrat like Manchin had a chance to win multiple times in the state. That strategy isn't "failed," it's the only reason we're even talking about a Democratic Senator from West Virginia.

If there is an alternative strategy that can win West Virginia as a Socialist Democrat, it would truly be unprecedented, that would absolutely cause a big shift for political strategy in the party. But a Socialist Democrat losing in West Virginia doesn't prove anything, that's the obvious outcome everyone expects.

[–] Pipoca@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

If he doesn't win, it's because centrist Democrats stayed home when they didn't get their first choice and didn't want to vote blue no matter who.

Why do you think that?

West Virginia used to vote Democrat, but has swung pretty hard right in recent years.

The last time the state voted Democrat in a presidential election was for Bill Clinton in 1996, who got 51.51% of the vote. Obama only got 35% of the vote in 2012, and neither Hillary nor Biden got over 30%.

Currently, Manchin is the only Democrat left in statewide office. Everyone else either died or retired, or they switched parties.

Why do you think that the only possible explanation for Shrewsbury losing is centrist Democrats not 'voting vote no matter who' instead of Republicans outnumbering Democrats in the state?

[–] Salamendacious@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

West Virginia has pretty equal numbers of registered Democrats and Republicans (36.5% & 36.8% respectively) so this will be a battle over turn out and convincing the remaining voters. We'll see where his numbers are in six months.

[–] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

Comparing party registration is a useless exercise. In states with open or semi-closed primaries unaffiliated/independent is always going to be a sizable bloc, and those voters almost always vote with one party or another (i.e. they're not truly independent swing voters who can be swayed). Just because WV has a huge chunk of independent voters doesn't mean the partisan lean of voters is anything close to even. West Virginia is an R+22 state, and the battle will be much less about turnout than it is about messaging and recapturing the attention of the working class.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

this will be a battle over turn out

And I fully intend to hold centrist Democrats responsible for their turnout or lack thereof. The party is as entitled to their votes now as it was when it was demanding progressives' votes for Manchin. And I'm not expecting the candidate to do a fucking thing to please centrists. They're not Republicans. That was enough when it was Manchin. Remember, progressives vote with the party 95% of the time!

[–] Salamendacious@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Bernie took w Virginia over Hillary, I think if he raises enough money and communicates his message well people will respond to him. My gut says that Jim Justice will get the Republican nomination and he will be a difficult candidate to beat. He's won governor races as a Democrat and a Republican. Trump likes justice and Trump won west Virginia handedly. The odds are stacked against Shrewsbury but I still think he has a good chance if he can establish his own story and not let justice paint him as some crazy Marxist.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Maybe. But the centrists will need to vote blue no matter who, like they've been screaming at any progressive who is less than pleased with people like Manchin.

[–] Salamendacious@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

We'll see. Turn out for the last election was the best since 1960. I think turn out will go down next year unfortunately. I truly hope I'm wrong. But I think next year is going to be a democratic massacre. People like Shrewsbury might actually turn that around. Who knows.

[–] Lauchs@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's a little silly to declare that no matter what the outcome, the test proves your case.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Really? Up until now, every time a centrist is protected by the party, we're told that it's because progressives can't win. Every time a centrist loses, it's because progressives stay home.

If the test seems silly or unfair now, it was silly and unfair when centrists were using it, and you had no complaints then.

[–] Lauchs@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Every time a centrist loses, it's because progressives stay home.

I don't recall ever agreeing with an argument this silly but you seem fairly confident I had no complaints about it.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If you've never noticed it, you haven't been paying attention for the past 8 years.

[–] Lauchs@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

You misunderstand me. I am saying I never agreed with it.

Though, honestly, there is something very refreshing about someone who is willing to propose something (a nonsense test) and then declare that it is the exact same as another test with which they disagree.

Either this test was nonsense and proved nothing when the mean ol' centrists were doing it and still means absolutely nothing when you declare it or that the centrists have been correct all this time and you get to be correct once too. Either way, it's silly but kind of adorable in that childish way.

Edit: Also, I know it might be inconceivable to you but I've actually been paying attention to politics for longer than 8 years. I know, before trump made it cool. Weird huh?

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Though, honestly, there is something very refreshing about someone who is willing to propose something (a nonsense test) and then declare that it is the exact same as another test with which they disagree.

Hey, if you want to deny that centrists have been both declaring that progressives can't win in red states and also blaming progressives when centrists lose, it's fine that you want to deny the lived experience of every progressive. Gaslighting and condescension are what centrists fall back on every time they're wrong, after all.

[–] Lauchs@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

if you want to deny that

Where did I deny it?

All I'm saying is that it's adorable that you hate this narrative until you find an occasion that suits you, at which point, oh obviously this narrative is true.

So, either the centrists have been correct all this time or you are just excited to have a chance to spout the same nonsense. Either way, not really a position worth taking seriously.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

All I’m saying is that it’s adorable that you hate this narrative until you find an occasion that suits you, at which point, oh obviously this narrative is true.

It was true enough for centrists to beat progressives over the head with ever since centrists' candidate lost to centrists' second choice in 2016. It stops being true the instant a progressive says it to a centrist. Unsurprising how that conveniently works.

[–] Lauchs@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

It's like talking to a brick wall.

So, either the centrists have been correct all this time or you are just excited to have a chance to spout the same nonsense. Either way, not really a position worth taking seriously.

I've got better things to do with my time. Have a good day!