this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
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For example by positioning themselves along a river and demanding payment from anyone who draws water.
Or by crafting weapons and demand payment from anyone who doesn't pay.
Or seek control through other threats, like poisoning food.
Really, the possibilities are endless...
An anarchist society doesn't mean that the people of that society can't defend themselves in nonviolent and violent ways.
Furthermore: why would those "dissidents" even start such behavior?
Edit (addendum): Seriously: Do you really think that over 150 years of anarchist theory didn't think of those scenarios and how to prevent them?
plenty of bad actors doing evil suff today for a big variety of reasons. i think its safe to assume they will be there, even if they are not so numerous?
whats the theory on how to deal with this stuff?
Without private property, there isn't much ingentive to be malicious in the first place.
And as I've said: a community can defend itself without the need of command and control hierarchy.
Example solutions for the examples given above:
Since these assholes live in a community, diplomacy to sanction those people until they cut that shit out. But he concept of payment isn't really a thing in a "fully anarchist" society, since those would for example run on gift economies, rendering the concept of payment a bit useless.
Crafting weapons example: Same thing. But if diplomacy doesn't work, the weapons would have to be taken by force (i.e. by a voluntary, democratically controlled militia).
The food stuff: I'm again asking "why?". But in general: let's say that people can't stop the "evil" people from being a dick by sanctions or force: People just move away. That's how humanity did it back in hunter-gatherer times. I think it was this video which explained it quite well (but I might confuse it with another one)
What about things like rape or sexist crimes in general? What about crimes motivated by racism, ableism or a clashing of ideologies?
The only thing anarchists have to say about these things are a vague "the communities will handle it themselves" which sounds an awful lot like police again to me.
Just this time the police doesn't have to follow laws at all and it's basically my neighbours who will make up their own rules. This is a thought that runs shivers down my spine and not because of happiness.
If you claim that anything that resembles an answer to crimes is a "police", then you're talkino about something different than everyone else. The police as it exists today is there to fight class tensions and keep the current order of things.
Do youeknow how many cases of rape cases currently lead to a conviction? Compare that to convictions of people stealing food or not being able to pay their rent.
Crime will always exist. Currently, the way of preventing crime is by individualistic punishment, taking people away from the community they're in and the fear of the aforementioned. That is not the only way to "fight" crime. Handling crime as an injury of the community and focusing on healing that wound as a community is IMHO a way more effective way that enablino bullies to get a power high.
The police make up the law as they go all the time. Ever heard of "the blue wall of silence"? They cover for each other when someone steps out of line, because to them, group cohesion is more important than playing by the rules.
You seem to not understand what bottom-up decision making is.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what police does. Neither does it make the laws, nor is it responsible for convicting rapists.
Like when people were burning witches? Or what's happening right now in multiple countries which do not have police where all disputes are "solved" by clan-violence and vigilantes on the streets?
Why do you believe, when your neighbours form their little vigilante groups, that they will help you when someone rapes you? What if the rapist is a friend of them or even someone from that group? What if they believe it's okay to rape specific people or under specific circumstances?
Why did people burn witches? Maybe because someone in a position of power was in search of a scapegoat to blame because their position was threatened?
Very non-hierarchical structures you're describing here. /s
I'm not proposing "neighbors form[ing] little vigilante groups, so... Idk? 🤷
Way to miss/derail my point, smartass.
how is such a thing like the aforementioned militias be organized?
assuming my country turns anarchist, how will we defend against imperialist nations? we cant just move a country over because someone else wanted what was in there.
You do realize that you can't seriosly expect an answer to such a broad question in a lemmy post, when whole books have been written about that topic and there is all but consesus on the specifics of the implementation, right?
First, the whole system is doomed to fail because a small group of "dissidents" could topple it, now The small group of dissidents becomes a whole imperialist nation. I think that's what you call "moving the goal posts". I will disengage if you keep showing not one gram of good will.
The militias are organized in a decentralized manner and will be accountable to the community (not a small group of superiors).
That's a cathegorical error right there. Don't knoweif you noticed it.
Again: quite a broad question. Allow me to point you to an essay with a proposal, if you're so inclined.
That strategy is one of the strategies to be employed against small groups of tyrants in a nomadic society. Doesn't apply to all circumstances, but I never claimed it did.
im simply trying to understand how it would work in a broad way, therefore i ask broad questions.
from what the world is telling me right now, aggressors of all sizes and intentions will be the biggest threat to a project like this. i will give the linked material a read, but thats really the main point thats sticking for me about it.
is there definition on how society could be organized on a bigger scale, for bigger projects, like what countries are supposed to do today?
i mean, something like space programs need a huge network of different specialized and unspecialized personnel, equipment and materials to work. or the building of education systems, roads or healthcare across the country.
coordination with other nations for even bigger stuff also comes to mind.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
I think it was this video which explained it quite well
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Anarchist theory almost exclusively talks about political motivated crime they propose will stop when the state and all it's structures are abolished.
Non-political crime they mostly only brush over and suggest the communities will handle it themselves.
So no, they don't have a concept of how people are supposed to protect themselve from crimes that aren't politically motivated.
That's because you can't over-generalize these things without gausing great injustice in the process.
The communities on a ground level know best how to handle crimes in the community. If you want laws encompassing everyone in every facet of life: go read a bible or something.
You are advocating for exactly that to happen. Many bible communities would rejoice in anarchy bevause then they can enforce all their fucked up rules again and kids who are born into these communities.... Well, tough luck I guess. Your community on the ground level decided it's okay to burn people as witches who have red hair.
Yeah, because religion didn't spread through conquest. /s
You have a really fucked up image of humanity, do you know that? You do know that Hobbes was wrong with his Leviathan, right?
Explain to me this: if humanity isn't fucked up and what I suggest wouldn't happen, why is police bad? When people are so great and wonderful and nice and don't abuse their power, why do you dislike police?
You're proposing a false dichotomy: Humanity has the potential to be caring for each other or to be fucked up and only look out for themselves. It depends on what behavior is fostered in society to see if people in that society are (on average) "fucked up" or not .
I believe that fostering hierarchies of command and control teaches people to be fucked up. That being in a position of power over others fucks yowr brain up to think that you are above them and abuse that power. That is why I dislike hierarchies and by extension: the police.
That is why I believe we should build societies that should question and/or refuse these hierarchies, whenever they appear.
Hobbes believed that people are fucked up "deep down" and therefore, we need a hierarchical state to keep us in line. I think that he got it the wrong way round: That power corrupts us and makes us fucked up.
And I'm sure you know that feeling. That you had some teacher or boss in the past who treated you unfairly, because hey know they would get away with it, because they had a higher rank than you. It's quite a universal experience.
Well, I am so happy that police exists because I know I'd be fucked up without it. There is not a single society without police that doesn't oppress it's children and women. I know that a lot of people believe in a natural order and in that order I am below them. The only thing that is stopping them from enforcing their believes is that the country I live in decided that it is wrong to treat people that way and to enforce this believe they have laws and police.
I would rather not live in a world where I have to creep up my neighbour's butts in the hopes of them protecting me. I don't want to have to fit in to be free and I don't want to be scared of my neighbours all the time.
Anarchists just seem like a bunch of spoiled privileged people to me who's only concern is that someone doesn't allow them to consume drugs or whatever. I just wish they'd try living in a place without these structures in place for a while they privilege off but don't acknowledge.
That's simply not true. Counterexamples:
So, if a country can "decide" this, why can't a community "decide" it? We both know that there are bucket loads of precedents of countries oppressing minorities both in the past and now. So obviously, a state doesn't guarantee that people aren't oppressed. I'd even claim that most countries still oppress their children (to raise them as "productive" workers).
You have to do so today. If you don't notice that, that's because you fit in.
Ever heard of racism in the police? And you claim that I don't acknowledge my privileges.
Anarchists are acutely aware of the injustices that don't harm them directly. One rallying cry is "no one is free until we all are free" after all.
Each of your examples I looked up and there is either not eboug information about them to make these judgements or there is vague information that refutes your claims.
For example:
CNT/FAI had and used prisons.
In anarchist Ukraine you had the so called Black Guards which acted similar to police and they had groups like Black Banner and general tried to overpower each other all the time.
In the region reigned by Zapatistas the Mexican Army and National Guard's handle crime with Zapatistas even claiming they don't do enough and should do more against the violent crime there.
Wendat have hierarchical structures with a Grand Chief and a Chief of each family.
I don't say they can't. I say they can't do it without some form of police who enforces the rules they decided on in some way.
What makes you believe a smaller group of people is less racist? I'd say it's the other way around.
I very much do not fit in. And everytime someone helped me in the past it was police or some other state infrastructure. Definitely not my neighbours who would probably just cast me out as a burden.
You used the same explanation I already disproved, you're objectively a troll.
Look at the timestamps, Sherlok. You didn't disprove shit.
"Objective/y", lol.
Edit: You kind of missed when you "disproved" me how these societies had police or supressed women/children.
Cute, you know and admitted your examples are dogshit but don't retract them and get they to sit on a high horse. Hilarious. You are why people don't tend to respect anyone who even vaguely mentions anarchism.
Sure, buddy.
So how do/did these societies oppress women and children?
Are you sure you want to battle 4 front with two people and 3 alts? You're not doing so well so far boss.
Lol, do you think I have but 3 alts? I wrote every single comment on this post!
Seriously: Do you still think that I use 3 different accounts just to argue with you? Cute.
Three including you, correct.
Indeed, trolls finna troll.
As I've said: I can't prove to you that's not the case.
The only thing I can tell you is that sadly: You're not really worth the effort to do that.
I'm sorry for you. :(
Good ahead, prove away.
Add fun the fact you've spent what two days arguing with me. Amusing and illogical or as I can it par for the course.
Don't be, my life is great and people like you are why.
You can't prove a negative, smartipants.
Yes you absolutely can and at times should smarty-pants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens
Ok, how can I prove to you that I don't use alt accounts for your stupid arguments? Furthermore: what would I gain from it? You're already ridiculing yourself by claiming it. No one else cares. Do you think I want the respect of a bully?
Ah good me there, I'm dyslexic and read can rather than can't.
I don't know what you would gain, I'm not even sure why you keep responding to me when at no point have you made an argument, you've just been combative and rude.
I'm bored at work and easy to distract (ADD).
I guess you won't be surprised to read that I'd say the same thing about you.
Neat, so use that bordem to make an actual argument instead of this childish bullshit.
Nope at all, I'm 100% combative towards unsolicited idiocy.
I never was that rude. Bye, paranoid bully.
I didn't say you were extremely rude, I said you were rude which you just admitted. Logic ain't your strong suit is it?
I know that I can get carried away sometimes. No shame in that and never claimed anything else.
You however just admitted that you are "extremely rude" yourself. So I guess you can imagine why people like to disengage with you (yes, it is because of your awesome 1337 haxx0r debating skills with your based galaxy brain /s)
Being a dick and refusing to actually make an argument isn't taking it too far, it's quite the opposite.
Ah neat projection, you want to disengage with me next you don't now not have you ever had an actual point aside from being douche. I never once claimed or implied I was a hacker nor would I need to be iirc lemmy logs ip and the kids themselves are open.
You've still not a made a point. How am I wrong, if you're correct it should be easy to prove it to be so.
Sorry I won't come on your livestream and debate you, Vaush. /s
Again that's not an argument, it is however supporting evidence that you have no point but to be an asshole.
Lol no. Absolutely not! Anarchists would be 100% against these kinds of structures, so they wouldn't be allowed to exist.
How would anarchists enforce that these communities "wouldn't be allowed to exist"? Seems a lot like power and authority to me.
It's not an enforcement. No one would want to make that community, and anyone trying to make it would be laughed at.
You haven't actually read any anarchist theory, have you? This is a fucking joke.
No, it's actually one of the most problematic points in anarchist theory. How to handle people who are cruel or who do not respect social contracts. The fact that many anarchists want to abolish police but than want to build a structure similar to police or do not discuss the topic at all is showing they don't have a solution.
Stirner for example basically ignores the topic. Kropotkin only addresses crimes which have the state as basis (property and political crime).
Please share which Anarchist theoretist formulated a concrete plan on how to deal with non-political crime in practice.
Again, you haven't read any theory, have you? Have you really never heard of diffuse sanctions? Stop embarrassing yourself.