this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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Sorry Python but it is what it is.

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[–] ExLisper@linux.community 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

In my experience npm is not great but it does work most of the time. I just tried installing bunch of stuff using pip and NONE of them worked. Python is backwards compatibility hell. Python 2 vs 3, dependencies missing, important libraries being forked and not working anymore. If the official installation instructions are 'pip install X' and it doesn't work then what's the point?

npm has A LOT of issues but generally when I do 'npm i' i installs things and they work.

But the main point is that cargo is just amazing :)

P.S. Never used ruby.

[–] ArbiterXero@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Well there’s your problem lol.

Don’t use 2 for anything, it’s been “dead” for almost 4 years.

[–] clearleaf@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The problem is 2 and modules for 2 still tend to worm their way in somehow. I always use python3 -m pip because I never trust that "pip" alone is going to be python3 pip and I think that's what the people who have lots of trouble with pip aren't doing.

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

It would be weird to have python2-pip installed if you don't have python2 installed, pip should be python2-pip by default on most systems.

I... Dunno, are you suggesting that sometimes pip2 is the default and that that somehow mixes 2 and 3 modules? Pip 2 should install into python 2's directory and pip 3 to python 3's. The only times I have had messy python environments is when I mix pipenv, conda and/or pip, and when people install into the main python with specific versioning, use a virtual env for God's sake, that's what npm does.

[–] ArbiterXero@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Valid point.

I force everything to 3 and don’t accept any 2.

And in fairness, there were some moderate breaking changes 3.6-3.8

[–] spacecadet@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ahh the blissful ignorance of not having to manage tech debt

[–] ArbiterXero@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

No, I just don’t ignore it for 4 years.

The bliss is in having management that actually DOES manage the debt instead of ignoring it until it shits the bed

[–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think it's fair to blame pip for some ancient abandoned packages you tried to use.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The issues I had:

  • packages installing but not working due to missing dependencies
  • packages installing but not working due to broken dependencies (wrong lib version installed)
  • packages not building and failing with obscure errors
  • one package was abandoned and using Python 2.7

If a 'pip install X' completes successfully but X doesn't work it's on pip. And when it fails it could tell you why. Cargo does.

[–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

packages installing but not working due to missing dependencies

This is the fault of the package author/maintainer

packages installing but not working due to broken dependencies

Sometimes the fault of the package author/maintainer. Sometimes this is the fault of a different package you're also trying to use in tandem. Ultimately this is a problem with the shared library approach python takes and it can be 'solved' by vendoring within your own package.

packages not building and failing with obscure errors

Assuming the package is good, this is a problem with your build system. It's like complaining a make file won't run because your system doesn't have gcc installed.

one package was abandoned and using Python 2.7

Unfortunately there's a ton of this kind of stuff. I suppose you can blame pypi for this, they should have some kind of warning for essentially abandoned projects.

[–] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 8 points 1 year ago

Hmm, I personally haven't seen that kind of issue myself though. I also tend to not use random packages from random authors though, so that might help.

[–] velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would recommend that you give pnpm a try. Or if you want something that's blazing-fast, there's bunx, but that comes under a completely different JS environment (BunJS) and also brings back the same issue that's in npm. From what I've heard, they're probably going to make it similar to pnpm.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The main issue with JS is that every 6 months someone comes up with the next great tool that misses half of basic features and dies after 6 months when someone comes up with the next great tool. But at least the old tested solution still works unlike in Python where the main goal seems to be breaking the backwards compatibility as often as possible.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

I’m still rocking the fuck out of PHP (8) 😘

[–] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

pnpm is already very well established, it's not completely different from npm either so they didn't have to reinvent the wheel, they just made some things much better.
Python is is just a mess on the other hand, a thousand tools all with some overlap in what they're trying to achieve because they didn't have the balls to make pip an all-in-one solution, there are 2 great alternatives that do almost everything though: poetry and pdm. I read a spot on analysis on this article, maybe it can help you make a choice

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 2 points 1 year ago

This is great, thanks. Will definitely read even though I don't do much work in python. It's good to know how NOT to do things.

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 2 points 1 year ago

But at least the old tested solution still works unlike in Python where the main goal seems to be breaking the backwards compatibility as often as possible.

lol what. Node does a new major release every six months. And you're shit talking python? There's probably never going to be another major version change, and minor versions have several years of support

In like 10 years of python development I don't think I've ever been mad about breaking changes in python.