this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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You understand propaganda like a fish understands water
When I say that, I'm going by every regular source that ever existed, plus satellite images, its near-impossible standards for leaving or entering, its lack of internet access (who here has seen anyone who is actually from North Korea), and the fact that the average North Korean adult is only five feet tall, with height being an indicator of health (the taller the healthier). What do you weigh against it that inspires you to posit it's all just propaganda and hearsay? Other hearsay (as opposed to a conflict within the narrative you oppose)?
"regular source"
did you know these are imposed on them externally? their policy is that they love tourists. here's a video of a couple of australian tourists enjoying themselves there. the reason americans can't go there is because the US forbids it.
it's a country under brutal siege for its entire history. yes, they're poor. whose fault is that?
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Regular sources as in MSNBC, CNN, NPR, Wikipedia, etc. sources that are the most established, enough that they're among the top 500 websites and that they show up on the first page of a Google search. Not to mention a random source is going to have random origins, trust in a source has to be earned and even with trusted sources you must compare and contrast them sometimes.
The restrictions for leaving and entering have not been imposed on them externally, this attitude of Korea predates even the Roman empire so external factors wouldn't have been possible as a cause, even though it's undeniable there are nations that have restricted anyone from going there. Japan used to be the same way at different points in history, though for the time being they're open to everyone.
come back when you can form a coherent thought
In what way is it not coherent? Am I supposed to communicate almost wholly in pictures like you’re doing instead of links (it should be noted your pictures appear as transparent blocks either due to the defederstion settings or a glitch thereof).
Apologies if my semantics/grammar are too loose, as English is not my first language (it’s always hard translating Asiatic languages into English), though an online grammar checker said it was fine.
we are having a conversation about a country which has existed for less than 100 years why the fuck are you talking about the roman empire and the joseon dynasty
your grammar is fine, it is the content of your posts which is utterly useless.
It has existed at various times throughout history in different forms and even aspects of the state ideology such as Cheondoism are simply modern manifestations of ancient tradition. There is nothing new about it or its cultural attitudes, not if you ask the Chinese and not if you ask the later Christian missionaries who attempted to do anything there only to be punished for existence.
you have some very strange, very incorrect ideas about the DPRK built on a foundation of circular logic. please start de-propagandizing yourself with that video i linked earlier, it's a very good one.
Based on a video of yours (which I did watch) or based on all the sources I gave (which are plenty and back my "foundation of circular logic")?
You linked two things. One of these is an article about literal ancient history, and the other is an article about three Christians who all lived and died long before the country we're discussing existed. Please, please explain to me how your "sources" are in any way relevant to the topic at hand.
Your circular logic is as follows: The DPRK is isolationist. We know it's isolationist because they don't let people in. We know they don't let people in because they're isolationist. No, I won't pay any attention to the hard fact that they do, in fact, let people in, and that it is in fact their enemies who do not let people into their country.
Point to where I said “we know they don’t let people in because they’re isolationist”.
Also, my sources explain how the two Koreas manifested themselves in the past. Your counter sounds a lot like the old “the Roman republic was not the Roman empire” which isn’t true. They weren’t called North and South Korea at the time. Names change. Governmental systems change. It happens.
Sure! It was right here.
Anyway, we're at an impasse here. You've decided that the DPRK is not a distinct country and that all you need to know about their laws can be extrapolated from the ancient history of the Korean peninsula, and that anything modern which contradicts your juvenile interpretation of ancient history must simply be made up. I have no idea what species of brainworm is responsible for this ridiculous conspiracy theory, and I am not qualified to exterminate it.
I don’t see it, whether in your passage or out of it. Maybe because I never said it. Neither did I say the DPRK wasn’t its own country, or that modern history is made up, at most I was saying its customs of isolating go back to earlier manifestations of North and even South Korea. I did give sources. Many sources, ones that weren’t Wikipedia. They said what I said before I did. What do you bring to the table?
They literally quoted you...
This is you saying the thing you said you didn't say.
"Giving sources" isn't just mentioning them. It's linking to them, providing them as references. You've only done this for the aforementioned ancient history and three christian dudes.
Listen to Blowback season 3, it would do you some good.
“The restrictions for leaving and entering have not been imposed on them externally, this attitude of Korea predates even the Roman empire” =/= “we know they don’t let people in because they’re isolationist”
They’re isolationist because it’s a cultural value derived from their location relative to their neighbors. And again, it predates the Romans. There’s nothing in my comments that make it circular, what I say is intertwined with multiple sources, some unseen, combined which wouldn’t allow me to be circular.
I’ve hyperlinked to a few sources. I can hyperlink to more as well. Are we basing validity of sources based on fame? How many others agree with it? How many narrative holes their messages have? How old the sources are? Their nationalities? Whether they’re blocked where you live?
You're saying the same thing twice there. The fact you say it isn't, doesn't mean anything when the actual statements are functionally the same. No matter what they both place this issue at the feet of the Koreans, which is what the disagreement was about.
So you are saying they are isolationist. Super. ut that has already been argued with you and instead you moved the goalposts to be about proving you said something you thought you didn't say, which you are now once again saying
As we have already gone thru, you've hyperlinked to two things. Do you not understand how references work? Do you need everything explained twice? Yes please provide your sources for god's sake this is the third time I'm telling you how sources work.
You do - you rely on the reputation of your alleged sources by way of them being large established brands.
Yes this is called being critical of your sources. It's an inherent part of any dissemination of information - not to just blindly accept statements presented by others. All of the things you mention help evaluate wether the source might have a bias, though the really big thing is cross-referencing claims. Interests of conflict and bias are helpful when conflicting narratives occur.
Do you not get the point of references? Why do you think we are taught from an early age to engage sources with skepticism?
You are putting words in my mouth to claim that I imply a nation’s policy reasoning by mentioning the timeline of said policy. If there is any act of moving goalposts, it’s being done in said process of putting words in my mouth. It is the fallacy fallacy.
Name a criteria for what we shall consider a good source, and assuming it’s an ideologically unspecific criteria, let’s see if we can both follow it.
No I am presenting you with the logical conclusion to your statements.
"Having the result of my actions pointed out to me is putting words in my mouth". Don't ask questions if you don't want them answered.
Get it thru your dense skull: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECTLY GOOD SOURCE. You need to be critical of ANY source, but the only way you can do that is by PRESENTING IT so it can be studied. THIS IS BASIC SHIT. Have you never learned source critique?
When we speak about "good" and "bad" sources, it's generally common parlance to describe media that is known to lie or which had a heavy bias - Breitbart, Infowars, Epoch Times, Radio Free Asia, Wikipedia - these are all examples of being "bad". This is not to say that they cannot present useful information, but you should be extremely wary of taking anything presented by them at face value - again you should be wary of all sources, but even moreso one that has a proven track record of a bias.
A source might be good for one thing and bad for another. You wouldn't trust the press secretary oval office dismissing accusations of sexual assault made by the same press secretary, but you would probably trust it with statements about wildfires in the US. You wouldn't trust the Japanese government with statements about it having no connection to the moonies, but you'd probably feel safe in trusting it's statements about shinto shrines or whatever.
You investigate your references for bias, for lies, for truth, you cross-reference with your other references in order to gather a more complete picture, and when you encounter conflicts you weigh the validity of each reference - In large part here the question of "who to trust" should in part be answered by "who do I know has lied before?"
Well, you can stop with your “logical conclusions to my statements” because I dispelled that logic by defining the semantics. Nobody can speak for what another person intends or what they mean, just what is perceived. I laid out a clear difference.
You speak of source critique, source bias, and all sources being good for something as if this whole time you haven’t been bashing America and its practices (some of which you at first overly deny) in the exact same way you accuse me of giving into bias about North Korea. So I’ll ask again, what criteria would you like to use? Because I want to know how, if I’m failing at a criteria you prefer, you aren’t ahead of me in the same act of failing.
Well, let's start with the first step, which is citing a source at all. They have asked you to follow through on your offer to cite sources to back up on your claims multiple times, and you just keep getting bogged down in these wacky circular semantic arguments. Currently you are failing to produce any source of any strength or bias.
"You can stop with pointing out what it means when I say shit, because I also said 'nuh uh'"
You are correct, I have been speaking of source critique and then I have been critiquing the "sources" as far as has been possible BECUSE YOU HAVENT PROVIDED A LINK TO ANYTHING. How are you not getting it? What is with your weird circular logic?
the critique had this been limited to showing how these media have a proven track record of lying and a clear bias. This called source critique.
Get it thru your dense skull you dense motherfucker, there is no such thing as an overtly good or bad source. Did you not comprehend what I described to you?
You have so far posted three links. Two of these are descriptors of medieval kingdoms.
Post your fucking references you massive brickhead porridge farmer
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Which often repeat unproven stories without fact-checking them, or spinning stories to suit their agenda.
How to make a story on North Korea
...as opposed to?
As opposed to not lying. You're welcome
I meant in terms of brand. You’re welcome.
Your question makes no sense bud.
It doesn’t make sense to inquire why a few things are singled out as dishonest when the entity in question is big media which takes a myriad of forms?
No, your question was
... As opposed to?
Which makes no fucking sense. Like it's a cute little snide smuglord gotcha that you can throw out, but what the fuck are you actually asking?
It’s an honest question with relevance to the discussion. You either can answer it or not. And I already elaborated.
Would you rephrase your question then? Because as I've made clear, I don't understand what you are trying to communicate.
You said the source brands I speak of can be said to lie about what’s going on and spin it to something of their liking. Here, the question “as opposed to what” is asked because anyone in any position might argue that the sources they disagree with are lying, so in the spirit of the critical thinking mindset which you say I haven’t learned yet, I’m asking what does one source called out as lying have to indicate it might be lying that the other sources anyone else can call out for lying don’t have.
I then highlighted why and showed examples of them having done so.
Lying as opposed to observable reality, for example with regards to the Iraq war and stories about North Korean haircuts. With regards to the Iraq war they themselves have admitted to it, the untruths are well known. With regards to North Korean haircuts this lie has been highlighted by people reporting on the ground, showing it to be untrue.
The source "called out for lying" has been proved to have lied. The others have not. You are welcome to prove so - which you do by showing them lying, not by posting some us state dep ghoul saying "oh they're lying".
You gave disagreements, it isn’t as if you pointed out holes or contradictions. Anyone can do that.
Are you saying you’ve observed them or that I have the power to observe them? If it’s the former, is this something you can prove? If it’s the latter, I’m more than happy to observe when you’re ready (and no, “sources” are not “observation”).
Based on what? Based on external sources? That brings us back here.
Alright, this is going in circles, it's obvious you're not acting in good faith, so I am going to disengage
At least I'm not responding with insults about pigs and brickheadedness.