Or maybe you're intentionally playing with words. In which case let me point out that the West didn't start the war. Russia did. They had a whole "special military operation" about it.

Fucking peaceniks, greatest Russian allies out there. Absolutely disgusting mentality.

[–] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay, they did, I agree. Now, how does that help us end the war?

[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is ending the war in Ukraine as fast as possible (i.e. by handing Russia control over it) a desirable outcome when we KNOW due to multiple historical precedents, public declarations, and even stated intent from Putin himself, that Russia will immediately move to invade other countries like Belarus, Kazakhstan, Moldavia, Georgia, etc?
Of course it fucking isn't. Russia backing the fuck down and learning to respect national sovereignty is the entire point of this war.

Also, ignoring the geopolitics (which is a stupid enough sentence by itself...), who the fuck are you to tell the Ukrainians what they should or should not be doing? They want to fight Russia, they don't want sheltered western bois telling them to surrender to the oppressor who will genocide them, again.

Your line of thinking is wrong. It's patronizing, it's belittling, it's cowardly, it's unproductive, and it's DANGEROUS. It's how we got the Munich treaty, the Vichy Regime, and Collaboration. So we fight Imperialism, wherever we see it. We fight the Nazis when they invade our country, we dunk on the US when they commit imperialism in the ME, and we militarily enable our allies to drive Russia out of their sovereign territory.

[–] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But they’re not driving Russia out. They’re losing. The counteroffensive was a failure, the Russians are pushing further in in the north, Russia has air superiority and will for at least 8 more months until training for the US provided fighters is completed… and in the meantime dozens of thousands of people have died, and dozens of thousands more will continue dying until peace is made.

Do you genuinely see a path forward, knowing the current situation, where Ukraine fully and completely pushes out Russia, without putting foreign troops on the ground? I’d be interested in hearing it, because that would indeed likely be the best outcome, but it’s looking less and less likely the longer the war goes on.

[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am not a military strategist so I will refrain from proposing "paths forward" for what is obviously going to be a drawn-out battle against well entrenched Russian defenses. I'd recommend Perun's latest video if you really care (though I haven't found the time to watch it yet, but he goes REALLY in depth about big picture strategies).

Regardless, as long as the Ukrainian government asks for more weapons, I say we provide those. Seems like a simple enough request to fulfill, especially when they are the ones carrying the risks and paying for it with their lives, so again, who the fuck are we to say "nuh-uh, stop, it's too difficult for you".

[–] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

I appreciate the recommendation. I’ll put it on tonight when I do my exercises. I respect your position, it’s more nuanced than most people I’ve had similar discussions with. I hope whatever happens, peace comes sooner than later.

[–] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Where did I claim to be smart? I am merely pointing out that, if you give those who start wars what they want, they have an incentive to go and start more of them.

[–] wtypstanaccount04@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Considering your takes, I certainly didn't assume you were smart, although I don't think intelligence is a qualitative measurement.

In terms of wars, you do realize that wars are started for different reasons, right? The material realities that start wars differ vastly from war to war. Also, if the USA is any example, losing a war does not do anything to stop a country from starting another one.