this post was submitted on 13 Aug 2023
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Collapse

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This is the place for discussing the potential collapse of modern civilization and the environment.


Collapse, in this context, refers to the significant loss of an established level or complexity towards a much simpler state. It can occur differently within many areas, orderly or chaotically, and be willing or unwilling. It does not necessarily imply human extinction or a singular, global event. Although, the longer the duration, the more it resembles a ‘decline’ instead of collapse.


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[–] siderea@universeodon.com 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@jsdz

Article: [list of ways to stop burning fossil fuels]

jsdz: No! My list is better! [exact same list of ways to stop burning fossil fuels.]

@DougHolland

[–] jsdz@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I didn't claim that my list is better. Just that it's shorter. There's only one thing on it. One could elaborate on that one thing for the length of several books and I guess those few sentences I foolishly chose to add were too much for your taste, but the basic idea is not complicated in any way. It's very clear what works. Stop burning fossil fuels. Right now. Nothing else.

The problem is that people tend to start by thinking of clever ways to advance humanity incrementally towards that goal. That's the wrong place to start. It won't happen that way. That approach has been failing miserably for several decades now and it will continue to. What we need instead is to start by honestly accepting the necessity of giving up fossil fuels right now, and then look at and accept the consequences of that. As Gail Tverberg in today's other post says, and she knows all about oil, "we need heavy oil if our modern economy is to continue." Well then our modern economy can not continue. We will not "maintain our lifestyle and economy." Either we give that up along with oil, coal, and gas, or else we let it be destroyed by climate change and its consequences. The seemingly universal inability to acknowledge this when discussing what needs to be done is the point I was trying to get at. The degree of change that would be required of us is seldom suspected by readers of Forbes and never mentioned in articles like the one linked to here. It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of burning fossil fuels.

[–] doomer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Not to diminish any particular arguments, but this is how these conversations always play out in my view:

Stop burning fossil fuels.

But we are in overshoot.

Yes

But we won't be able to keep up agriculture.

Yes

But we won't be able to keep up industry

Yes

But we won't be able to keep up consumerism

Yes

But people will die.

Yes :(

But the rich will loses their riches

Yes

but but but

It doesn't matter what the cost is, that's the solution. The rest is simply consequence - and it grows greater by each day we ignore it.

Just because an ask is nigh impossible, does not mean that it is foolish or that it comes from ignorance.